Divination to Adoration - Worship Then and Now (Worship, Part 2) - Episode 042

Carey Griffel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and today Cindy Beaver joins me for our second episode in the worship series. Today, we're going to dig a little bit more into exactly what worship is. And we have about three questions that we hope that we will end up addressing as we talk about this today.

The first question is, what is our current view of what worship is? And by that, I just mean, generally speaking, like, the most general idea of what worship actually is. Our second question is, how does this reflect, compare, and contrast with the view in the ancient Near East? Because it is a very different view.

And our third question is, how [00:01:00] do we see this in the Bible and the ancient world? So we're going to be delving into some of the religious practices of the Old Testament and really trying to draw some parallels and ideas with what we're thinking there. So welcome, Cindy.

Cindy Beaver: Thanks, Carey. I'm glad to be back.

Carey Griffel: The first thing I want to talk about is this idea that we often say that The Bible is not a science book. And we mean a particular thing by that, because to us, we have two very different things. We have the Bible and faith, and we have science. And some people will combine those two things in different ways.

Some people will say they're entirely separate. And we tend to say that the Bible is not a science book, but Kind of in a way for the ancient person, it really was a science book, because if you're thinking about science in the sense that science is supposed to explain our world [00:02:00] and show us why things are the way that they are, well, The ancient person used their scriptures and used their formulation of what they were saying in scripture and in their sacred writings to define what that is.

So in that way, they were actually using the Bible As a science book of sorts, so it just depends on what you're defining science as and how you're using the Bible. Right? For some of us today, there's various ways we use the Bible in conjunction with our views of the world at large and why we are in the situations that we're in.

Why creation is the way that it is. For instance, you have the literal six day creation idea, where the Bible is just recording the facts of creation, and that is the point of Genesis 1. You also have ideas like concordism, where [00:03:00] they are using the Bible as a basis or a framework in order to do science within.

So a concordist might be taking something like a day age view of the days of creation or something. So they're still saying that the Bible is describing creation happening in a literal kind of physical way. But there's different ways of, looking at that. But even if you're looking at the Bible, and Genesis 1 in particular, as that temple creation narrative, right?

Where it's describing the cosmos as a temple, and it is not necessarily describing the physical acts of creation as they happened in this particular order. Even if you're using it in that kind of a framework. You're still using the Bible to inform your meaning of the world. And so it's describing why the world is the way it is from the perspective of God and us.

Right? , so there's some different ways of looking [00:04:00] at that.

Cindy Beaver: Yes. I think that, you know, for a modern Western person Our view of science where it's proof and validity and, you know, by doing this and that and the other thing, you'll be able to verify whether or not this exists or doesn't exist, is it true or not? You've got this whole hypothesis and just the scientific method in general and, you know, that was not the way that people considered the world, even 500 years ago, you know, we have to step back and kind of like Dr. Heiser would say, put on, you know, the hat of what an Israelite would think back in their days and it was not a how do we exist? They see you, you do exist. It's not that, that's not the question. It's more a matter of what is the purpose for which you exist? What are you [00:05:00] contributing to this world? You as a person, what do people, what are they supposed to be doing? Because doing is what provides meaning.

And so what does a dog do? What does a sheep do? All of these things. It's all much more really a matter of function and not so much about how did you come into being? That was taken as a given you're here. You know, I'm starting with something. I'm not starting from ex nihilo.

Carey Griffel: And the way that we see everything from the Bible perspective, it tends to be that narrative of everything started in Genesis and the fall started certain things, right? So in particular, we tend to look at that and we go, well, we have to explain why there's tornadoes. We have to explain why there's [00:06:00] sickness.

We have to explain all of these bad things that happen in the world. So if we're reading the Bible and we're seeing Eden as this idea that it's this perfect or almost perfect state, and that there was no death, there was no sickness, there was no disease, there would be no bad weather, anything like that before the fall.

Then, you know, after the fall, suddenly we have all of those things in existence. That's a very common way to look at this. Like when Adam sinned, he broke the entire world and suddenly we have all of these bad things that happened that didn't happen previously. That's a very common way of looking at creation, of reading our Bibles and seeing that there.

But is it really there? Is that how the ancient person would have viewed the world? Like, were they looking for explanations as to why do we suddenly have floods and tornadoes?

Cindy Beaver: Yeah, I,[00:07:00] you know, I agree with that. I don't, I mean, when, even in the descriptions in Genesis, God saw that it was good. The word is good.

It's not perfect. As a matter of fact, and only a little tiny part of the world was good. The rest of it was still wild. And he expected humanity to bring goodness to the rest of the world. So, and the other thing is, is the Bible doesn't really tell us, was there death before Adam sinned? You know, what about, and I mean, what about the dinosaurs?

What about all this other stuff? The Bible doesn't tell us. And I'm not even going to go there because that just opens up a whole huge can of worms. , but you know, again, I'm, I'm concentrated on what were the people that were writing the Bible... what were they thinking? How are they viewing the [00:08:00] world?

And even I love looking at some of , the Babylonian and , the Canaanite writings. I find that incredibly interesting as a comparative to the Bible. And so I hope we can share a little bit about that. And there's some books that we can recommend . To your listeners of things that would be like from Ugarit, the Kirta story and things like that.

Look at that and you will see how the writing those styles of writing really Line up well with how the Psalms appear and some of the wisdom poetry that this was not unique just to the Bible, that this was the cultural river or ocean that everyone was swimming in back then. it's really, really hard for us to stop thinking our Western thoughts and, and the influence that we have of evolution and all of those [00:09:00] things.

But you have to find a way to set that aside and start. But, and reading and really absorbing in the culture of the world , and the other thing about these people is they were so much more interacting with the spiritual realm. It was part of their day in and day out. I mean, I think they probably did see and recognize when an angelic presence was in their midst. And I think that they could see things that maybe right in front of us. And we are totally blind to them. We have lost that ability. , but you can see that, you know, even again, 600 years ago plus they still had that ability to interact and were much closer to the spiritual realm than we are in our current world.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, I think that's a good point because we have certain presumptions [00:10:00] that the ancient person wouldn't have had. But the ancient person had different presumptions, and so that's what we really need to dig into is, what are their presumptions? What are our presumptions? Because we need to kind of be honest about that. We, we might not even know what our presumptions are, and we might not realize that they're presumptions at all. So, I think looking at the way the ancient world looked at things versus looking at the way we look at things is, incredibly interesting and very necessary for our Bible study. Like, for instance, this idea that there was , nothing bad at all could happen in Eden or, before the fall, and suddenly the fall happens, then everything bad can now happen.

You have people who will, Appeal to the curse on the ground as the reason for that, right? But the curse on the ground, that's about agriculture. That's about sustaining yourself from the land and whether that's [00:11:00] easier or harder to do. And the way we can see that is because the situation with Cain parallels what's going on in Genesis 3 as well.

The curse on the ground is something that affected their ability to live from the ground as far as growing crops and sustaining themselves in an agricultural way, right? It wasn't about suddenly we have rain in ways that we didn't have before and suddenly we have diseases that didn't happen before.

That's not the point of the curse on the ground. But we want to have answers for why those could be if God created everything and it was supposed to be good. But to the ancient person it was like that was just their daily existence. And so we have this idea that the reason we have all of those things is because of the curse in Genesis 3 So, in a way, it is God that is [00:12:00] involved in all of those bad things happening, like there's a reason for that within creation.

Well, the ancient person would have also thought that their gods were the causes of bad things, but it wasn't because of a single curse. It was because that was just the way their lives were ordered, like there, there was a definite parallel , of what's happening on the earth and what's happening in the unseen realm.

You don't divorce those 2 things in the ancient world at all. They're very integrated.

Cindy Beaver: Exactly. They would recognize that the God could provide both. It's interesting. The God, the gods that they write about in these Babylonian and Ugaritic writings They're very frivolous and flighty that it's like on one moment the God loves me and he's, he's there and supporting me and things are well.

And then I called to my God and he did not show his face. [00:13:00] I prayed to my goddess and she did not raise her head, you know? And it's like, okay, they're looking away from him. They're not helping him there. He's having a problem. And you know, he's wondering what the heck can I do to turn them around? How can I buy their favor?

This is what most people in the ancient world were really trying to do, hedge their bets. They had gods that were recognized as being over. A kingdom or a nation. They had gods that were then more territorially aligned with a city. And then they'd have, you know, even to the point of family or household gods.

And some of those gods might actually be ancestors, you know, so that ancestor worship gets incorporated in there where they would pray to them and ask them to see if they could intercede. I think, you know, a lot of what they did was around praying [00:14:00] for fertile crops, praying for rain, but not too much rain, you know, praying for this, praying for that, praying for children and that their daily needs would be provided.

It was very much. In the whole sustenance concept that these people were involved in, in worship and worship again, when we think about what are those worship practices you'd have the paterfamilia, the head of the household. , it was his gods and those that he worshiped that the rest would follow and obey. Even the slaves, he would be the one that would do the priestly type things that we think of if there was an animal sacrifice or even just pouring of a libation, whether it be wine or beer, or even water for that matter, or oil. And typically it would be done around the hearth. Because that's where the food was, would be prepared and [00:15:00] things like that.

And it was again, so very much oriented, but they'd be praying for health and wellness and, and for somebody to be cured or healed of a, of a disease. All those things that we think of during daily life, you know, of course, they're not praying for a green light, you know, but. But they are praying for the things that yeah, not a parking space either.

You know, I need to get my camel up to as close as I can to the market stall so that I can go out and get my Gucci bag. No. But, you know, that was how they did their worship was really about daily living and it surrounded them. They would look at the stars at night and they knew that there was a connection between the other realm, the unseen realm and the stars.

And so you can even get into some of the whole omens and, the astrology and the predicting of signs and [00:16:00] using even, you know, eclipses and full moons and new moons and all of these things I do know that for like some of . The ancestor worship there would be a monthly ritual where they would say some prayers and they would provide food and a drink to the departed family members and in a way they were doing it.

It's called, I think, like a kipsum ritual. Derek Gilbert has mentioned this in some of his books, but that it was usually done at the new moon when the moon was dark. And again, they would pour out a beverage and provide some bread or other grains to sustain the memory of that person. And, invoke their name, as long as somebody remembered their name, their spirit would live on.

And so we look at, you know, , the story of Babel where they wanted to make a name from themselves. [00:17:00] They wanted to be renowned. They wanted to be remembered. They wanted to live forever. And so. When we think about, you know, ancestor worship in general, they were looking for their family members to protect them.

And they were also trying to avoid being haunted by ghosts who may intend to do them harm.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. Basically to them, that veil that we think of as being between this world and the next kind of thing, it wasn't so much a veil.... it was just that the unseen realm and our world were integrated in a very real way. Whenever they did things, it affected the unseen realm.

Whenever something happened in the unseen realm that affected , the people on earth as well. So, it's like very much a mirroring thing and we tend to separate those things. I haven't really gone into Psalm 82 [00:18:00] to the degree that I could here in my podcast, but people will see that passage and hear people talking about how it's talking about the gods. And then people will go to John 10 and say, well, that's not how Jesus was using that passage. He's referring to real human beings. And in a way, maybe in a way, you're kind of getting a bit off track because of the point of what Jesus is talking about there. But my point here is that it doesn't have to be an either or thing, like to the ancient person, it was both. It was the gods and the king. It was the unseen realm and the world there's very much a mirroring of heaven and earth going on there.

Cindy Beaver: As in heaven, so on earth, you even look at how in Daniel the passage where the Prince of Persia was coming and the Prince of Greece will be coming soon.

Well, that's Alexander and his armies that are [00:19:00] coming with the Prince of Greece, you know, it's both physical and unseen that are coming and working collaboratively in ways that we don't understand. Well, but I think they were very much more in tune with that.

Carey Griffel: Just as a bit of a side conversation, just for a moment, Cindy, as far as this idea about control and manipulation of the unseen realm and how that revolves around worship practices, Do you think that was more common in the pagan world versus What the people in the Bible were doing and how do we look at that and were the pagans really just trying to evilly manipulate the gods or could we see it a little bit differently than that?

Cindy Beaver: I think they were trying to do whatever they could to get by. I really, really do. I think that you look at again, these, [00:20:00] these ancient writings and you see they're like, I offered you wine. I offered you the best because , they wanted something good to happen or they just wanted badness to stop.

And so I think there's definitely a sense of, bribery going on, or just , keeping the gods pleased and complacent so that. You know, as long as you're happy, then you're not going to think bad thoughts and not do bad things. So I definitely think that there was that going on and you can see that even in the Greco Roman era where they would, you know, just, I just want to keep them happy.

I don't want to see the bad crabby face. I want to be happy here. Think of even, you know, like the Philistines with Dagon and having to reset him up and get him all and you think they had those daily Offerings and sacrifices to their gods. They would dress them and feed them every day. I mean, they were pampering and caring for those idols again because [00:21:00] they wanted to avoid the negative aspect of the God.

But I think also, you know, what I find interesting is when the Israelites came to the land and they interacted with the Canaanites, which they were not supposed to do. But if you think about it, when the Israelites were in Egypt, the whole irrigation system of the Nile was a totally different concept of farming than what they do , in the promised land, the promised land, you are relying on rain.

And so can't you see an Israelite farmer going, so how is it that you guarantee rain and, and stuff to grow your crops? And they're like, well, we go up on the top of the hill with one of those temple prostitutes there. And we put on a little peep show because that'll stimulate the rain God. To rain on us because he got all excited by watching what we were doing.

And we were fertilizing the prostitute and , he will [00:22:00] then fertilize the ground for us. That's how it happens here. That sounds like a great idea, you know? So, you know, and I'm just kind of making that story up, but you can see where. They would have been influenced by that for a couple of reasons.

Number one, just the whole urge, natural urges, but also they too would, want to hedge their bets that Yahweh is our protector. He is the God almighty, but we want to make sure that these other gods are also placated and pleased.

Carey Griffel: , and that is absolutely what we see in the history of Israel and that's why they got into such problems , and that's why Yahweh was such a different God.

Because he was the God who was very much interested in making sure that the covenant came through. , he was the God who was very deep into the interest of covenantal faithfulness. And [00:23:00] this idea that he is the one who's faithful and he's not capricious, he's not going to just change his mind because he's in a different mood or whatever, that he could be truly relied upon by the people.

Cindy Beaver: He was so steadfast. , and I mean, that's so much reflected throughout the Bible. He is steadfast and faithful. He's the only one who is. And the other thing, what is so unique about the Israelite people is that God told them exactly in written form, what he expected of them. What they should do how they should behave.

There was no guessing game about, do I offer wine in this cup? Do I offer a ram or do I offer a pigeon? I mean, everything was all laid out for them. They just had to follow the plan. And he communicated with them through [00:24:00] prophets. They had the word. They had the word. No one else did. Everybody else was a guessing game.

Carey Griffel: And prophets communicated with the people. So the people were supposed to have this information. It wasn't secret. Like, if there was anything written that , the pagan priests had, it was supposedly something that was secret and that most people didn't know about. So they were left guessing. They were left like, we don't know what we're supposed to be doing, so let's try this next.

And if there was anything that was formalized, It was only for the priest's eyes. It wasn't something that everyone in the culture knew about. It was like, you go to the priest and they're going to do their thing. We're not really sure necessarily what they're doing, but we trust that they know what they're doing. So we'll just leave it with them. And it wasn't an open revelation to the people at all. That was another unique thing in the Bible. [00:25:00] God is going to reveal himself to the people and here you go, you actually know him. You can understand him. And that's not how the pagans were living their lives at all.

Cindy Beaver: No, in their concept of holiness, I mean, they had also the similar temple structure, but it was not because there was actual holiness.

It was really who is the most privileged and powerful to go inside. It turned things upside down. I mean, that's the whole thing about Jesus is he just, you know, he turned that whole hourglass upside down of, that's not how it is. the first shall be last and the last shall

Carey Griffel: be first.

Oh, that's a beautiful connection. We see these parallels with, Oh, there's a temple in Israel, there's pagan temples. They must be exactly the same. And there's so much crossover. And we need to understand that, but it's the contrast [00:26:00] that we also really need to view.

Okay. So in our last episode, we were encouraging people to come up with their own list of things that they could find that were related to worship in the Bible, and hopefully as you read, you're finding more and more, and you're building a bigger list, and you're, kind of making this whole conception. You should be bringing stuff out of the text yourself,

and so after we have come up with our own thoughts about worship, we can then go and look at a broader concept of worship. , how did we even come to this idea of what we have as worship? And that's what a lot of my listeners questions have been. Things like are modern worship songs okay? Are they actually worship at all? And that's not something I'm trying to answer today, but there's that sense that we have that there is something vastly different in our concept of worship Than what the ancient people had and how did we [00:27:00] even get here? Why is this a thing? And part of the problem there is ...words, like the words we're using don't actually map one on one with the words that the Bible is using.

Our modern word worship, it really doesn't have an exact parallel in the Bible. And that's why this is such a complex topic to talk about in a whole series because of that difference. The word worship actually comes from the old English word that I'm not even going to try to pronounce because I would absolutely butcher it. But that word basically means worth ship you are worshiping something that is worthy of your worship.

So worship is something that is motivated by reverence or honor to another person or object. And of course, when we're talking about the Bible, we're primarily talking about the worship of God. So when we think about [00:28:00] worship, it should be worship of God and honoring and revearing God.

Cindy Beaver: Yes, I think one of the things in the, way that God talks about in his covenant is he talks about, because I, God have saved you, therefore you shall. It's all because of his saving acts, he is requesting that people worship him.

Carey Griffel: I want to read a little bit of a quote from the New Bible Dictionary about the topic of worship.

It says, quote, Worship originally referred to the action of human beings in expressing homage to God. because he is worthy of it. It covers such activities as adoration, thanksgiving, prayers of all kinds, the offering of sacrifice, and the making of vows. Nowadays, however, worship is used for any kind of interaction between God and his people, [00:29:00] expressed in, but not confined to, cultic or formal activity by a religious group or individuals. It therefore includes not only the human approach to God, But also the communications of God with his people and the whole communal activity that takes place when the people gather together religiously. Such activity is the formal expression of spiritual attitudes, which should characterize God's people at all times. Insofar as serving other people is a divine command, the fulfillment of it is a part of worship. The term worship is misunderstood if it gives the impression that the major element is what humans do or offer to God. Biblical religion is primarily concerned with what God does for his people, end quote.

I find that very interesting because the way that we see that happening, like you go to church and you worship, right? You're going to church and [00:30:00] you're singing the songs and you're maybe taking communion and you're listening to the sermon.

And that kind of maps onto the ancient Near Eastern practices of things like sacrifice and offerings and all of the things that they do in order to please their gods. It's kind of a formal thing, right? But to us, worship has that added idea of adoration and honor. That we are doing it, not to get something, but because this is our relationship with God, in a sense.

So my main point in bringing all of this out here is not necessarily to answer these questions yet, but to point out that the concept of worship and the way we view it and its purposes and systems that we use in order to accomplish worship are actually very different and they have changed over time. And we can actually view that change and see how it has developed. [00:31:00] So the question for us at the end will probably be.... Are my worship practices in line with what Scripture is saying? Is this a worthy and good trajectory of change? Or is there ways that we could kind of adjust our thinking today and our worship practices? Are there maybe better ways of doing it? And things like that. That's kind of the trajectory that I want to be thinking on here, instead of just nailing down an exact answer of saying, oh, modern worship songs are terrible or modern worship songs are absolutely okay, let's leave that question open for the moment and look at this development of history.

Cindy Beaver: but I, you know, I think it is interesting with you know, we go to church on Sunday. We sit around, we listen to, you know, a few Bible passages, maybe we listen to the Psalms, maybe there's a few prayers, somebody [00:32:00] does an expository talk about one of the Bible passages most often, at least in my evangelical experience, it's, you know how can I apply it to my life today?

And then You know, yeah, you're singing a few songs, you may have communion, you may see a baptism and then you're done. And oftentimes people are, I did my worship for the week and, you know, do they pray before meals? Do they pray at night? I don't know. Do they pray multiple times during the day or light a candle or do they do anything at home?

I don't know.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, but it seems like a lot of us have lost that connection of that the ancient Near East had, that it was a daily thing that affected your life and that your worship mattered as well. I mean, I think that there is also that this aspect of [00:33:00] a real integration of heaven and earth.

Cindy Beaver: I agree. You know, look at even, you know, Paul is even celebrating his adversities. He's thankful and praying at all times to be given the opportunity to share the word with other people. And that's how we're supposed to be. Always doing the outreach. Also always trying to see if we can let others in on the magical secret of there's this fabulous God that loves us and wants to take care of us.

But he also expects us to be, behave in certain ways, to be moral, to worship only him and. You know, as Jesus said, love God and love one another.

Carey Griffel: And those were connected and they are connected. , you mentioned Paul I have this other quote from the Dictionary of Paul and his [00:34:00] letters.

And it's talking about Paul's time, so it's talking about the Greco Roman religion and cult. It's really quite interesting to me how, even though the Hellenistic world was very different from the Ancient Near East, it still had a whole lot of parallel to it. So I'm going to go ahead and read this little quote here, because I think it's very interesting and insightful to the way that we could look at The ancient world by large, as far as how it, it interacted with the gods.

It says, quote, the ministry of Paul was set in a culture and civilization that had long since acknowledged the place of the gods and goddesses and responded to the elemental awareness of the divine. In the ancient Greek world, the deities of Homer and Hesiod were accepted as superior beings linked with virtues and requiring obedience.

[00:35:00] They formed a society located on Mount Olympus and were presided over by Zeus, the father and king of the gods. Paul's tribute in 1 Corinthians 8. 5 refers to deities in heaven, presumably of the Homeric pantheon, and on earth, relating to manifestations of the divine in fertility spirits or possibly deified kings and rulers.

At the center of traditional Greek religion was the idea that the gods were guardians of the moral order and were to be reverenced by offerings in a cultus, as well as by prayer, to secure a favorable lot in this world and in the underworld of Hades. The largely unpredictable fate awaiting the departed contributed to an uncertainty and fear which made worship at the shrines and temples a fitful experience.

The linkage of the cultus with the cycle of nature and the desire for good harvests [00:36:00] made religious practice an important feature of everyday life. But it added only to the uncertainty of life should the harvests fail and the herds be stricken with disease. A lot of traditional religion had a prophylactic element, that is, to ensure prosperity by warding off disease and danger. End quote

Cindy Beaver: Yeah, that's exactly what we were talking about earlier. This was all you know, preventative in nature. I think too, even the the guilds would have their own gods, you know, think of the silversmiths and the different groups. So even, you know, when you would go to work, you did not go away from a worship type setting.

That was part of what the Christians really struggled with. Was when they were to worship only, you know, the one God as, shown through Jesus if they could not participate [00:37:00] in all of the activities that involved worship and sacrifice of other gods, and oftentimes they would lose their employment or their ability to work because it required almost like a union that you participate in the guild and without The guilds representation you couldn't do what you did before.

, and that really was a difficult time for those early, early Christians. And even then it was, it got into the whole emperor worship thing. And so that even civic events think of, you know, the parades and the, you know, the circuses and all of that stuff were all Events that the public was expected to attend and actually it was, you know, promoted the rich people that was part of their, their what I'm going to say, liturgy.

It's the work of the people in the ancient cultures that was a public service and people would sponsor the [00:38:00] building of a temple or the amphitheater or some other significant building and they get credit for that. But it was also to benefit the people. They did not have public works like we do. They did not have a state that, that did the roads. You were responsible or somebody had to be responsible for building the whole infrastructure for a town or a city. And so people had to contribute to that. And, but it all got enwrapped and enfolded in the whole worship practice and the honor culture that they had going on back then.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, which, it's so interesting to me how that's such an outstanding extension of what , the even more ancient world had.

See for us, we're so used to thinking about certain things. Like we, Christians are not supposed to do anything that's related to [00:39:00] divination, right? So when we see anything that smacks of that in the Bible, we're like, Oh, that, that's a bad practice. That's not something that they should have been doing.

And we don't connect that with our idea of worship, but to the ancient person is very connected.

Cindy Beaver: . They were using the divination to try to understand what the God was saying to them. Whether it be you know, by looking at the liver or other organs of a sacrificed animal, or whether it be throwing dice, whether it was reading tea leaves, or looking at the solar eclipse. Or even necromancy where they would have, you know, soothsayers or think of like Saul going to the the witch at Endor to find out what was Samuel, what, did he have a message for Saul? All of those things were just ways for the common people to understand what was the God trying to [00:40:00] communicate to them.

Carey Griffel: . And I think that's what we see with the teraphim in Genesis where we have Rachel who steals her father's teraphim and Laban comes and follows them and he's like, Hey, who stole my teraphim? , this was a big deal to him.

And it seems like it was a big deal to Rachel as well. Do you want to talk a little bit about what teraphim were and how we can see that kind of episode in Genesis in relation to the God of Israel.

Cindy Beaver: So the, the teraphim were most likely either the small household gods or they could have even been little images of, The ancestors that would have guarded and guided over the family.

And so for Laban to no longer have them, it meant that he was stripped of , his patria familia status. And he was at risk of bringing offense to [00:41:00] those ancestors and, and gods. He was at risk that they would be unpleased because he would no longer be able to serve them and feed them and take care of them. And so that was just incredibly frightening for him. , and you can see that evidence of the ancestor worship even. Throughout the biblical narrative, you, have David and his first wife, Michael, and she had a giant teraphim that they wrapped up and disguised as if it was David still sleeping.

So from Genesis through David's time, they were still using teraphim.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, for us, we tend to wonder, like, what is going on here? Because we thought that they should all be worshiping the God of Israel. And because they, they do get to the land and they're told to leave all of their household gods, but that happens in time. So it's like the people were actively participating [00:42:00] in things that were common to their world and it took time and revelation to get to this point where they had to realize that they could just fully rely on Yahweh and no one else.

Cindy Beaver: Yeah, they were trying to hedge their bets.

They were influenced. It wound up really being a synchronism within the culture. Yes, I think they probably recognized Yahweh as the most high God, but they were used to the other cultures of the world having many gods. There would be a high God Marduk or El , but other gods that expected to also be worshiped.

And so the struggle for the Israelites was real in understanding that you shall have no other gods before me meant you shall have no other gods. Only I deserve worship. It's like, well, I'm worshiping you as the highest God. Isn't that good enough? [00:43:00] And God's answer would be, no, it's not good enough.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, to the people around them, their gods weren't jealous. You could worship multiple gods and the other gods were like, well, that's fine. As long as I get my due, as long as you're still worshiping me, I don't care if you're worshiping anyone else. You just have to keep worshiping me. So the fact that it's brought out specifically in the Bible that God is a jealous God.

Like we tend to read that and think that's rude. Why is he jealous? Jealousy isn't a good thing. But you gotta put that in context and realize the other gods, they didn't care if you were, who you were worshipping as long as they were also being worshipped. So this idea that the God of Israel could genuinely provide for all of their needs and that they only had to worship Him, that was a very novel [00:44:00] notion.

That, that wasn't normal at all. So it's like you look at the ancient Near Eastern world and you look at all of the different practices they had of their fertility rites and their household gods and the divination to try and figure out the gods will and how they were supposed to do things you contrast that with Our idea of worship, and it's like, it doesn't seem like they were trying to honor and respect their gods necessarily.

That's why I was asking about whether or not this is a controlling or a manipulative thing in the ancient Near East, because we tend to think of it that way.

Cindy Beaver: I think it's also, it kind of brings in the whole fear of the Lord. It kind of has a different tone when you are considering what these, the others are doing, where it's really much more of a placating , and trying to buy off , , the God [00:45:00] to either do them a favor or to not inflict harm. So the fear of the Lord is legitimate fear , , when looking at the other gods, whereas the fear of the Lord for the Israelite is much more of a respect and show him deference and honor.

I mean, yes, you should also be afraid of him because if you really go against him, you will get the bad side of things. The blessings and curses sides of the of the covenant will come, but I, I think it's a different type of fear.

Carey Griffel: So, less a fear of This capricious deity, I don't know what he's going to do, so I better be afraid because we don't really know and we'd better do all of these things versus something that's contrasted with that kind of a fear of There are genuine reprisals, [00:46:00] and I know what those are, and I should be afraid of those , not because I don't know, but because I do know what they are.

We don't like the idea of fear in relation to worship because we're like worship should be nice, warm, fuzzy feelings, right?

It's adoration of God. Well, it is and it can be because we can have that assurity that God is faithful and not capricious. But to the ancient world, fear was just kind of, it was... It's embedded in their lives in a way that I think we don't quite understand because of our different ways of viewing the world.

Cindy Beaver: Well, and they were subsistence living, you know, we aren't. At least most of us aren't in the Western world. You know, do you go hungry or not? I mean, these people didn't necessarily know from day to day if they were going to be able to [00:47:00] eat or if they'd even be alive or have clean food or shelter.

So fear of the Lord is really going to be so much more integral into their lives than us. We're, we're so distanced from that. And yeah, in a way we have turned the evangelical world, at least, has kind of turned the whole practice and worship into Jesus as you know, our friend. And I'm not saying that he isn't our friend, but we've diminished that he is, he is God most high.

And yes, he's our friend, but he is also our judge.

Carey Griffel: In our modern culture, I think we want to push away negative emotion. We want to push away anything that smacks of fear, we just want to live these nice, comfortable, cushy lives. And we want that to be what worship is about when really, I think it's a much more complex thing.[00:48:00]

Cindy Beaver: What is it that God says to the Israelites when they're about to approach and they're like, he's, you know, when your bellies are full, you're going to forget all about me. And are our bellies full? Have we forgotten all about him? Have we wandered off?

Carey Griffel: Losing some of that element of fear is not a good thing.

Yeah, I agree.

So I just find it interesting that we have this idea of worship being adoration and honoring God. And we absolutely find that all through scripture because the whole narrative of Genesis is what God is doing for the people and how he keeps pursuing his people.

Even though they keep running away, he keeps going after them time and time again. So the people should be adoring God, they should be revering him, they should be honoring him. this is the core of what they should be doing and why they should be doing it.

All of their [00:49:00] religious practices should stem from that core. So it's not so much that worship that we see as adoration is not what we see in the Bible. But it was done differently, and there are different ways that they were viewing why they were doing it. And they had such complex practices because of that integration of heaven and earth that they had.

And because we've lost some of that integration of heaven and earth, that's kind of why our worship practices seem to have simplified, I guess.

Cindy Beaver: And lost a lot of the significance. We've forgotten what the whole purpose of the different actions are for.

Carey Griffel: And even understanding that these different elements of what we see as religious practices are in fact elements of worship, even if they don't quite look like what we have.

Cindy Beaver: [00:50:00] So I've been as I've mentioned in a previous episode, I've started going down the Orthodoxy path. And so I've been to some services where like during Holy Week or even one of the feasts at the elevation of the cross, where we do a veneration where three times in a row, you are getting down on your knees and putting your head on the floor, bowing towards , , the cross of Christ, getting up and doing it again, saying these words. And I've never experienced that previously in my life growing up it's evangelical in the Lutheran church. We didn't even have kneelers.

I never knelt or anything like that during church. And so it's emotionally and physically, it's the whole Orthodox experience is much more tangible. It's much more physical. I realized that I am actively [00:51:00] worshiping, not just with listening to somebody else tell me stuff. I am singing I'm singing psalms.

I'm saying prayers. I am singing things while the priest is praying something different. We're all contributing and, it is a work. That liturgy means work of the people or public service. It is taken after the aspect of, of the ancient Romans where the liturgy meant . public works where somebody would, you know, sponsor the building of a temple or something, this time it's taken in and Constantine the emperor is the one that, that said that public worship would be considered liturgy.

It's a work of the people praying on behalf of all the other people within the empire. And so I just find this, it's so refreshing and so different than what I've experienced before. And. Definitely, I would call [00:52:00] it more worshipful than what I've experienced elsewhere.

Carey Griffel: So to you, the physical actions were something that really kind of influenced you a little bit more than just, you know, if you're sitting in a pew, your mind might be wandering off to this thing or that thing over there.

But that's a lot harder to do if you're actively doing something physically,

Cindy Beaver: right? You know, I would be on the fact of, am I going to be able to get up out of this position? And now I got to do it again. And I really shouldn't have worn this dress, but I, you know, all those little thoughts, but yes, it does focus my attention in ways.

that it doesn't just by sitting there or listening or whatever. I'm definitely having to, it's taking me out of my comfort zone, so to speak, and helping me to focus by those physical actions. Or we will [00:53:00] even stand facing in a certain direction for certain activities and different prayers and things like that.

And so , the combination of both. physical and verbal is really very meaningful and it does add to your worship experience.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, I would love to hear from other people who have various types of worship kinds of experiences because I, think that I've had just as good experience as just, you know, sitting like in the forest, just thinking and communing and praying with God. You know, you can have those personal kinds of experiences where you're not moving, you're not physically doing anything, , but I've also prayed with people where we were all kneeling down.

And that's kind of a different feeling than if you're just sitting in a chair. it seems to connect people in a communal way. , at least in evangelical circles, you have the idea of, you know, the vertical [00:54:00] and the horizontal, where both of those things are involved in worship to some degree, you're focusing on God, but you should also be involving the others around you if only because they are the body of Christ.

And so I guess the question is, how does the body of Christ relate to our experiences in worship? And what does that mean?

Cindy Beaver: I think in my experience within the Orthodox setting, we are acting as one. It is one of the few times where the community is the body of Christ. , and it feels, it's so powerful to just.

I just feel that it's not just me. I'm not, and I'm not just one amongst a group of people, but that we are the church and we are accomplishing this. I can't, it's hard to explain.

Carey Griffel: It is hard to explain. [00:55:00] There's different ideas of what unity is and what it means and what it looks like, right. To us, a lot of times when we're talking about unity. We're just talking about mental agreement to something. We're unified because we're not arguing, right? I think there's another way of viewing what unity is, and it's, it's that oneness of, of acting as one, of actually being one. Like if we are all the image of God, and then we are all the image of Christ because we are in Christ. Things that we do can be unified in not just a mental, I agree with you kind of a way. But as, as a genuine extension of who God is and what he's doing in the world, if that makes sense.

Cindy Beaver: Yes. And, and it winds up being communion where it's, more [00:56:00] than just unity and it includes relationship and, and fellowship and, and all of those things.

In this setting, It's, God is in that mix as well, and he's uniting and tying us together in a very, very special way.

Carey Griffel: , it's something that's hard to explain if you haven't experienced it before. Like, I think that there are ways that we do experience that in our regular lives. You know, for instance, if you're at a music concert and you have the music and everybody's maybe not dancing, but moving in some way, perhaps, or singing, or just enjoying the music together,

I don't even know how to put it, like if you haven't experienced that kind of bringing together of a group of people , it can happen in different ways and in different times and for short periods of time where you feel like that. [00:57:00] But when you're genuinely worshiping and it's the spirit of God who is effectively bringing you all together as the body of Christ, that's like a next level kind of experience. It's not necessarily just an emotional thing, right? It's, it's a genuine bringing together of, unity.

Cindy Beaver: Right. Whereas I was just thinking of, , you know, attending a concert, like I, I love the Eagles and I've been to several of them and I mean, everybody in the audience is singing and , you are united, but it's, it's not the same kind of being united.

Yes, it's special and all of that, but there isn't, the connection is only as brief as, as the song or the concert and then it's gone.

Carey Griffel: Right, right.

don't meet another fellow random concert goer later and have the same kind of relationship that you would have [00:58:00] with a member of your church that you have worshiped with, I think.

Cindy Beaver: Right.

The one thing that I want to emphasize is when I was growing up, you know, and, even, I mean, part of it stems from the whole Evolution kind of concept that pervades the culture right now.

But that the ancient people that we're talking about here in the ancient Near East, that they were not as smart as us and that they were, you know, superstitious and they thought that even this was a spirit and it's like, no, they were pretty darn smart. The first cuneiform tablets that they've, the earliest ones they've discovered, they're accounting documents.

, they're an invoice for how many cows are being delivered and how many sheep are being delivered to a temple. These people created writing because they needed something more than just , you know, verbal agreement. , we, I have not advanced that much, [00:59:00] I think our technology has changed significantly, but as a people and how we think and how we look and how we act, I, you know, I don't think we're all that much different than, they were. It's just the culture and the living situation that we have. And so that's what I would think is important for the listeners to take away too is to stop thinking of them as superstitious. Yes, , they were sacrificing and things , to placate and to cajole the powers that be to be good to them or to not harm them.

They knew nothing else, and they had much more visibility into that unseen world that we have lost contact with.

Carey Griffel: I think there's many things that they could honestly teach us. [01:00:00] And I think that we also tend to be like, well, maybe it's not that they were dumb, but, you know, they were just out for themselves. Like, they didn't really care about the deities. And I'm not quite sure that that's even true, because, of course, it depends on who we're talking about, because a lot of the deities were not nice. They were not moral. But I think that people were trying to connect with something that was beyond them, that was better than them, that they acknowledged as something higher.

And so I think that we need to acknowledge their struggles , in their day to day world and realize that everybody has those kinds of struggles, you know? And that's kind of part of why we even worship, like, what, what is the point?

I hope that everybody has enjoyed this conversation and that you have gotten a bit of a better idea of the ancient world versus our [01:01:00] world and how those things do and do not connect , because it's the comparison and the contrast that both matter.

All right. Well, thank you, Cindy, for joining me.

Cindy Beaver: No problem. I enjoy our conversations. Thanks, Carey.

Carey Griffel: All right, so that's about it for this episode and we're still on this introductory trajectory of what worship is. Basically today were laying out some of these ideas of the contrast of the ancient world and our world today. In future episodes, we will be getting into much more specifics about those things.

And we absolutely will be getting to the questions that I keep teasing, but it might take a little bit of time because I really want to lay that firm foundation.

In future weeks, I want to do some things like digging into comparative literature and that might be kind of a fun thing to do because I'm thinking comparative ancient literature, but also literature of today, as well, because we're living in today and it really is essential that we're looking at worship from today's perspective even as we're digging into the biblical theology that I'm talking about and that I love so much in this podcast.

I also have high hopes of bringing on more conversational partners and if you guys have any ideas of what you would like to see in the podcast, please do let me know. You can contact me on facebook, you can contact me through my website at genesismarskthespot.com and you can email me at genesismarksthespot@gmail.com. You can also continue to ask me questions of things that you would like to see addressed and I would love to hear your experiences with worship in your own context.

Thank you for listening to this episode. Thank you so much for sharing all of this with other people in all the various ways that you do. Thank you so much to my patreon and paypal supporters. I've got a whole list of things I'm researching in regards to this topic and I'm really excited to bring all of that to you guys in the future. But until then, I hope you all have a blessed week and we will see you later.