Genealogies and How to Cram More Into a Story - Episode 035

Carey Griffel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and today I once again have Cindy Beaver with me and we are going to be discussing Genesis 4.

If you haven't previously listened to our episode on Genesis 4, we're going to recap a little bit about it. But you'll probably want to go back and listen to that. You won't miss too much if you just dive into this a conversation, I'm sure. So thank you Cindy for joining me today.

Cindy Beaver: Oh, thanks Carey. I had so much fun with our last episode.

I'm glad to be back and continuing on with this You'd think it's just a short little, chapter of 26 verses, but there's just really so much to talk about. And as you and I talk more and more, the more we find. . [00:01:00] As a reminder, I'm a business systems analyst working at a national retailer.

I am not a biblical scholar from, any, like, seminary or anything, but I have been doing self study and taking occasional classes for the past 20 years.

And I've just been so, enthralled by the topics that I've discovered and various different things. I mean, one summer I was binge watching Mesopotamian videos and things like that. I mean, you know, it can take you in so many different directions.

Carey Griffel: It really can. And we've even discovered that genealogies are interesting.

Surprise, surprise! It is! Of all things, genealogies. But they really are, and we're going to be getting into a little bit of that in our reading today. But before we get into the different readings that we're going to be doing Cindy is going to be reading from one version, and I'll be reading [00:02:00] from a different version, we wanted to do a couple of reminders of what we were talking about last time, in particular, because we, even with all that we said and talked about, There was still more we wanted to say.

Cindy Beaver: Yes, for example, one of the things that we brought up last time was that some people view the Cain and Abel story as a commentary regarding northern and southern Israel, the different kingdoms.

Remember that this genesis would have been written or at least redacted and edited. During the Babylonian exile. And so there people are looking back and thinking about this. And it's like, if you look at Abel is the herdsman of sheep. Well, the portion of Israel that would have supported sheep raising is Judah, Southern israel. Cane on the flip side is a worker of the land and vegetation and produce [00:03:00] are , the fertile area of Israel is the Northern part. And so when you see that Abel's sacrifice is accepted because he brings the first and best of his flocks. Whereas Cain, he brings something, but it's not necessarily the first fruits and it's not necessarily even mentioned as the best fruits.

That , could be seen as a commentary on worship practices. And when you think about and compare Judah versus what the northern tribes are doing you really look and see that, okay Judah is following with the deuteronomistic view of the Lord's temple is in one place that he chooses ,which is Jerusalem, and that is where all valid worship should be conducted for the Israelites. But then when northern Israel splits off, the kings do not want their people going down to Judah [00:04:00] for the different festivals. And so they set up, not one, but two temples. And , outside of these two temples, they have statues of bulls, which could also be cherubim.

It's, you know, there's some debate about what exactly was outside of them. They're derogatory in the Bible called bulls, but it could actually be a cherubim type thing. Again, a protector of the Lord's holy spaces. But here you have, again, a negative connotation that the worship for the northern Israel tribes not approved by God, and so that explains why Cain's sacrifice is not accepted.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, and being able to view it from this lens is really enlightening, because once you do it for one of the elements of the text, you can kind of start seeing it cropping up in different Parts of the text as well as we will hopefully get [00:05:00] to today, but. Depends on how far our reading and our discussion goes.

Cindy Beaver: Another piece that was brought up is when Abel's blood is spilt. And we talked about that in our last podcast episode of, your brother's blood is crying out from the earth. God is telling that to Cain and that it's like a Canaanite God, the God Mot is the god of, the underworld and he's reputed to have this gigantic mouth that is just gobbling up all of, the lifeblood of Abel. But we did have some comments after the episode regarding the blood.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, we had some really good comments on the post that I put up for our last episode.

Part of what we can talk about in these conversations is the names because the stories seem very short to us. They seem very compact and that is by design and the stories are written [00:06:00] very carefully and part of the meaning of the text actually does stem from the different names that are used.

Like we know Noted last time when names show up in a text. That might be just happened to be their name, but more likely their name had an intentional meaning either because they were named intentionally for a, reason of something that was in their life, or because the writer used a particular name in order to make a theological point. They weren't just making stuff up , this is how they thought about things and how they actually worked with the world, right?

So the name Adam is actually related to the Hebrew word for red. And , Adam, of course, was created out of the ground. And the word for ground is Adamah. And you'll have to excuse me if I have bad pronunciation.

I do not promise to have good pronunciations. That, that goes for English too. [00:07:00] So the, fact that Adam and the ground are so very related, I think that's something that you can take into these stories and really look at. When the ground is actually mentioned in the story of Cain and Abel, that should be bringing up certain types of imagery and certain ideas that are, going to be connected in the minds of the original readers or the original hearers.

As I have noted in previous episodes talking about other , creation narratives from the ancient Near East. There are narratives where , humans were made also from the ground, but instead of the god breathing into the creation, it was another god's blood that was mixed with the ground to create the person.

That didn't happen with Adam. There's no blood involved in Adam's creation, or at least it's not described that way. However, his name is connected to the word for blood. And this is [00:08:00] seen also because you can trace other names in the Bible that use the same Hebrew consonants that will bring up the same ideas.

Cindy Beaver: Yes, like Edom. Instead of Adam, we've got Edom. Again, it's just a different pronunciation of that same construct.

Carey Griffel: Yes, the word Edom looks different to us in English because it's spelled differently. But in Hebrew, it's using the same letters.

Cindy Beaver: And we definitely know that Edom or Esau. Was a red, hairy baby.

So there we go again with the whole red concept and red definitely connects to blood. It connects to sacrifices. And yeah, there's a whole bunch of things that you can tie together with that one.

Carey Griffel: And the concept of blood through scriptures is a really deep one. To us, it's kind of gory and we have certain associations with it.

But, we're not [00:09:00] people who usually go out and slaughter our own animals. So, our daily lives are not kind of coated with blood in the way that somebody in the past would have had their life if they were eating meat, regularly at any rate. And usually when they were eating meat, it was connected to the temple because it was so rare.

But the point is that we need to be putting our heads into the ancient person's heads and trying to see what their association with this is. One of the other things that we talked about last time that really just got me excited was thinking about the consequence , of what happened to Cain.

Because he does not receive the death penalty. He actually receives a measure of mercy. And I've seen some other conversations recently about that, which brought to my attention that, yes, he got mercy, but he also kind of seemed to dig into his consequence, like[00:10:00] He accepted it in a way, perhaps, or lamented it and didn't fight it, perhaps, as much as God might have wanted him to.

that's kind of something I've been thinking about a lot , in a lot of these stories. We read them, and we think, well, that's the way it happened, and the way it happened was the way God wanted it to be. And sometimes I think that's not the case. Sometimes I think God is trying to push the people in the stories.

To be participants in a real way.

Cindy Beaver: I think that talking about Cain and his consequences , and how he responds to it, I think that he is repentant, but then it's interesting to see what he does in the upcoming verses where rather than wandering forever, he eventually establishes a settling place.

Carey Griffel: And that is a [00:11:00] great place to just dive right into our reading now. I am going to be continuing to read from the ESV, like I did last time, the English Standard version.

Cindy Beaver: And I will be continuing with the Lexham English Septuagint.

Carey Griffel: And we're going to back up a little ways because where we ended was kind of in the middle of something.

So... I am going to start with verse 10, so some of this we've already discussed before, but I want to make sure we're capturing the whole context of what this passage is all about. So, the ESV starts in verse 10 and says, And the Lord said, What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground.

And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. And When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the [00:12:00] earth. Cain said to the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.

Cindy Beaver: And the version of the Septuagint says, God said, What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying out to me from the earth.

Now, accursed are you upon the earth, which opened its mouth wide to receive the blood of your brother from your hand, because you will work the earth. It will not proceed to give its strength to you. You will moan and tremble upon the earth. Cain said to the Lord, my guilt is too great for me to be forgiven.

If you throw me out today from the face of the earth, and I will be hidden from your face, then I will be moaning and trembling upon the earth, and anyone who [00:13:00] finds me will kill me.

Carey Griffel: All right, so we read about half of that last time , and we've talked a bit about this, but what stands out to you most in this section here, Cindy?

Cindy Beaver: You can read it 2 different ways of whether Cain is is sincerely sorry for what he's doing, or if he's just a whiner, he had already lied to God. So now he's reacting to it and going, I'm losing my, position in the family. I have to leave my father's house. I'll have no money or no inheritance. And now I have no occupation. But on the flip side, dude, you just murdered your brother. You took his whole life away and you deserve death yourself. And to not have that is a blessing , I mean, if he's gonna think that life is hard, well, it could be a lot worse. You could be [00:14:00] gone.

Carey Griffel: You could be in an Able's situation. What's interesting to me is in the ESV, it says that he is going to be a fugitive and a wanderer. And that word fugitive, it's an interesting word.

It's translated in the N A S B as a vagrant and a wanderer, and it's translated in the N I V and the C S B as a restless wanderer, like he's going to be wandering forever. So to me, that's a bit different. So why would it say restless versus fugitive? And this is why we read multiple translations because you will notice these kind of differences and think, huh? What's up with that?

And so when I went to look at that word, the word fugitive it does mean wanderer, it can have exactly that meaning, but it can also mean to shake or to tremble. So, that [00:15:00] really makes an interesting connection with the Septuagint that you read, Cindy.

Cindy Beaver: I also think the whole fugitive and vagrant, I mean, you think about vagrants in our society today, you know, a lot of times they're moaning and trembling because they're, hooked on something and, they've got withdrawal symptoms and they're dehydrated and they're feeling like crap.

And so you can, totally relate even to the fugitive from that perspective where it's negative. His status, he's fallen. He was the leader and the eldest. And now he's just going to be scrabbling around, living in rags, asking for pennies, you know begging for sustenance.

Carey Griffel: Looking at it like that seems a little bit different to me than just using the word fugitive. Because when I hear the word fugitive, you know, I'm, I'm thinking of Harrison Ford, and I'm thinking of bad [00:16:00] guys, right? So when you think it's, a little bit more nuanced than that... it's not just that he's a murderer, it's that there are consequences to what he's done, and it wasn't just his murder, it was his entire Attitude towards God and it was his entire attitudes towards life in general, like nothing he is doing is positive. It's not just the one act that landed him in this situation. It's far broader than that. And I think if we can see it like that ourselves, then that helps us to see our sin. Is our sin just something that We're doing that we can repent of, and that we're trying to repent of, or is our life a total wreck, and we're just accepting that it's a total wreck.

Like, those are two very different ways of living, I think.

Cindy Beaver: Well, and are we running from our [00:17:00] sin? And so we keep committing it time after time because we're acting like that fugitive every time somebody is about to catch us off, we run again, but we're not fixing it, we're not repenting and changing our ways, we're just going from place to place, unsettled and, perpetuating the same wickedness, basically we're being hounded and chased out.

Carey Griffel: I like how you put that, because that kind of connects to how sin is described earlier in the chapter.

Cindy Beaver: Yes, exactly. It's crouching and waiting to attack you. And so now it continues the chase.

Carey Griffel: Okay, so, and what we've read up to now is he's afraid of, the vengeance. He's afraid that someone is going to kill him.

And you know, this kind of gets into also this, the same question that we've kind of been talking about a lot about why didn't Cain get the death sentence from God? Why didn't God just kill [00:18:00] him? The common explanation for that that I've seen is that, you know, Oh, they didn't have the law. So there was no law against murder.

That doesn't sound right to me.

Cindy Beaver: You're the image of God. You're not, I mean, to kill an image of God? No, that, that is never, that is never approved. Yes. It is intriguing that God doesn't kill him. And you wonder, is it because there's not enough, a lot of people. And so he doesn't want to kill them all off, but Adam, Eve, get going, you got to make more of these.

I don't know. It is intriguing, but I, you know,

Carey Griffel: now, to me, the idea of mercy makes a little more sense that he did genuinely receive a reprieve.

Cindy Beaver: As well as when you look at it from the Northern and Southern [00:19:00] tribe perspective, God did not totally obliterate the Northern tribes. and there's hope for them in the future, that they will be returned. And so, again, I think it is helpful to look at that northern and southern tribe in association with Cain and Abel here of, that's why he's not totally wiped out, because northern Israel wasn't killed either, totally.

Carey Griffel: The Israelites were very concerned with exile, right?

They were concerned about the fact that they were scattered. And at some point in history, it became something that that was just going to be the way it was now. The diaspora was a thing, and they weren't all going to now come back to Israel again. So they had to have some thinking around that, like, does that mean we're never going to be forgiven?

Or can we think about it a little bit differently? So I think what we're seeing also [00:20:00] is this kind of Thinking through what exile is, and what it means, and that exile, even though it's associated with death, it is not itself necessarily a death sentence. It's a consequence, and it's a judgment, and it's a punishment, but also God can use that for his purposes, and we kind of, we see that in the New Testament, because when the people are brought back into being in relationship with God at Pentecost, they didn't go out and tell everybody, okay, We all have to go back to Israel now.

No, they went to their own people and the gospel spread from there.

Cindy Beaver: Jesus said, you know, to the woman at the well there will become a time where God will be worshiped. Not just on one mountain, but everywhere. I think also the, the diaspora. I mean, God uses bad situations for good.

You see it with Joseph, but I think you also see it with [00:21:00] the exile, both with the northern and the southern tribes. Because of the diaspora, that was how the gospel spread because where did Paul go every single time? The first place he went was the synagogue of the local city. Those, synagogues of those local cities spread out all over the place... they were there because of the diaspora, because of the exile and where people would see that going back to Judah was financially not viable for them or whatever. And you're right about , they decided to stay or circumstances made it so that they either chose or were prevented from returning.

And so you see, but still God can use that and he does. So I think it's an excellent point. And it does reflect, God's mercy. This is where the whole God is angry, you know, and, and [00:22:00] all of those people that don't like the, God of the Old Testament.

And it's like, well. He certainly is merciful with Adam and Eve. What did he tell him? Don't touch that tree. Don't do anything with that tree. Oh, you did something with that tree. You know, you've got sin crouching at your door, Cain. Don't do, well, now you did something. But he's always coming back. He's always offering forgiveness and a blessing and maybe it's not the most ideal situation. Exile is not the most ideal, but you can learn from it. You can be tested from it and you can come back from it.

Carey Griffel: It's an amazing thing to think about just how merciful God is in the Bible. And I think a lot of times when we have these ideas that God is wrathful and vengeful, it's so much harder to see the mercy that is just there, I think, screaming from [00:23:00] the pages.

Cindy Beaver: People can take things out of context, too. I mean, he's wrathful for a reason. You know, it's not like he just, Oh, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

You know, I just no. He had way... How does it... He is long of nose. Right. And that holding his anger and there just does eventually come that tipping point.

Carey Griffel: Well, let's go ahead and read our next little section here. I will read verse 15, in the ESV, which says. Then the Lord said to him, Not so.

If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him.

Cindy Beaver: And the Septuagint version says, The Lord God said to him, It will not be like that. Anyone who [00:24:00] kills Cain will release seven reprisals. The Lord God has placed a sign for Cain so that none who find him would kill him.

Carey Griffel: And of course, when you get to this passage, everyone wants to know what the mark is.

Cindy Beaver: . Yes. I've heard everything from some kind of a tattoo to change the color of his skin to being accompanied by a dog.

Carey Griffel: What?

Cindy Beaver: Yes, to him being able to turn into a

Carey Griffel: werewolf Mmm hmm. Yep. There, there are some ideas out there.

Cindy Beaver: Yeah, you know, and I don't, we don't need to know what it is. All's we know is that there was a sign. I, I think it's interesting this the Septuagint says anyone who kills Cain will release seven reprisals. It doesn't say who those reprisals will be [00:25:00] on or, you know, even the nature of them. Where, you know vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold is what the ESV says. So it's like the perpetrator will be, you know, struck seven fold. Whereas it almost, you know, in the Septuagint release seven reprisals, it's almost as if there's seven avenging angels that will be released, you know, who knows?

Carey Griffel: Yeah, yeah, that, that does have that kind of imagery with it,

I know we're trying not to jump ahead in the text, but now I have to know, what does verse 24 say in the Septuagint?

Cindy Beaver: Because sevenfold revenge has been given to Cain, but from Lamech, 70 times 7. So sevenfold revenge.

Carey Griffel: That's not as dramatic. No. And in the context of what a curse was [00:26:00] in the past, those revenges might, not be directly on the perpetrator. It might be to the seventh generation or something like that.

Okay, so let's move on to verse 16, which says in the ESV, Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Cindy Beaver: And my version says, Cain went out from the face of God and lived in the land of Nod, opposite Eden.

Carey Griffel: Ah, opposite Eden. Hmm.

Cindy Beaver: Yes. And the land of nod means the land of wandering.

Carey Griffel: Of course, today we kind of have that idea of, of drifting off into sleep because your head is kind of nodding when you're doing that. That's so interesting. Language is so interesting.

Cindy Beaver: So Cain went out from the face of God, meaning no longer in God's presence.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. The ESV directly says presence and your version That you [00:27:00] read said face.

Cindy Beaver: Yeah. panim.

Carey Griffel: And that's an interesting word that's used elsewhere in the Torah for the same basic thing. I really like how when we're looking at , the terminology, it's just so visual. We don't think God had a body and yet it's talking about God's face.

And that's not that we have to accept that, you know, God had a literal human face, but he might have been physically present in human form. with them possibly, or, or not, like it kind of leaves it open because of the way that Hebrew is so very figurative.

I also find it interesting that Cain went away himself, like he voluntarily wandered off.

Cindy Beaver: Yeah, he didn't have to get dragged and pulled or, you know, kicked over there all of a sudden he just disappeared and he was, you know, appeared [00:28:00] over. Someplace else. I do find it interesting opposite Eden. So that's, you know, across from or it, you know, the reverse of the flip side of Eden.

So if Eden is a nice place. This is not.

Carey Griffel: It's the Eden of the upside down. Yes. Well, and, you know, Adam and Eve, they had their way barred. They couldn't get back. And Cain just, he just went off himself. And it makes you wonder what he was thinking at the time and why he was doing that and all of that kind of thing.

Cindy Beaver: I mean, he has to replace his career, he has to replace his homeland and his family, everything.

There's no he has nothing. Right now he is just him or so it seems.

Carey Griffel: Or so it seems because in verse 17 I'll go ahead and read 17 and [00:29:00] 18 It says Cain knew his wife ...suddenly he has a wife... cain knew his wife and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city He called the name of the city after the name of his son Enoch. To Enoch was born Irad and Irad fathered Mehujael and Mehujael fathered Methushael And Methushael fathered Lamech.

Cindy Beaver: In the Septuagint, Cain knew his wife, and once she conceived, she brought forth Enoch. He was building a city and named this city after the name of his son Enoch. Irad was born to Enoch, and Irad fathered Mehujael, , and Mehujael fathered Methushael, and Methushael fathered Lamech

, we mentioned , a wife and then he's building a city and it's like, well, okay, so where did his wife come from? My mom called me up a couple months ago, where is Kane's [00:30:00] wife? Where did she come from? Like, well, you know, there's all sorts of theories about that. And then if he's building a city, well, a city isn't just going to be for two people.

Did a lot of time pass? Is his wife, his sister? Or do we follow Joshua Schwamidass theory that there were people outside of the garden? So, what do you think, Carey?

Carey Griffel: Well, just my personal opinion. I don't think that it's necessary to insist that there are no other people around. I think it's quite feasible to suggest that the family of Adam were either a special creation or were designated as God's people, , just like Abraham was designated as the new start to God's people.

And Abraham wasn't a fresh creation. , he came from somewhere. He came [00:31:00] from people. And so I don't personally find it to be against the idea of scripture and pure reason, honestly, to think that there were other people around.

Cindy Beaver: And I can go both ways because you know, hundreds of years, it doesn't say it right here, but we do know that hundreds of years have gone by.

So it is highly possible that between Adam and Eve and even Abel, we don't know. But Abel could have had kids, Cain and his wife, and how many kids did they have? So, and you know, it only takes a few generations to, you know, start, think of, of large families, you know, and, and so on and so forth, just kind of like the, Herbal Essence shampoo commercials, you tell two people and they told two people and so on and so on and so on. I mean, you can get a lot of people within a few hundred years. If we look at their biblical lives as, longer, [00:32:00] it's highly possible that there are people. Whether they all come from Adam or whether it's a special creation that then merges with the others from outside the garden, it doesn't say, and you know what?

I'm okay. I'm, I, that is, it's not critical to salvation. It's not critical even to the story. Otherwise, we would have had more evidence about where these people came from.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. For all we know, Cain could have been married before this even happened. Like,

Cindy Beaver: right. Cain and his wife went out from the face of God, you know who knows.

Yeah.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, it doesn't say he went out and got married. It doesn't say he went out and found anyone. It's just presumed. She's just there. And, and interestingly, she's not named.

Cindy Beaver: No, and you can't believe that Enoch is his only child. I mean, you can't, [00:33:00] it's highly unlikely that Enoch is the only one. So I think what we're seeing here is a list of the elder sons or, you know, T. J. Stedman will often talk about these are the kings, you know and so, okay. The eldest son or the reigning son that takes over and, and leads the clan or the tribe one after the other,

Carey Griffel: they're always primarily concerned about the patriarch or the leader. And they kind of. Head everybody so that everybody just kind of gathers under them

Cindy Beaver: and they're identified by them.

I mean, it's the whole patriarchal thing That's one of the things that I think is interesting when we talk about He's building a city. It doesn't say He these pronouns. I think are a little bit problematic for me because I I agree with, again, Tim Stedman Answers to Giant Questions [00:34:00] podcast. He goes along with that it might be better that these pronouns were associated more with Enoch and that Enoch was building the city and named it after his son Irad. And the reason why is that there's an actual city in Mesopotamia called Eridu. And Irad and Eridu sure sound alike. And Eridu is one of the first cities that has ever been established, or it is the first city in Mesopotamia, according to the archaeologists.

And so it's like there's archaeological confirmation about these biblical stories. And so it's, I find that very, very interesting of how much archaeology can actually confirm This isn't just being made up fairy tale stuff.

Carey Griffel: I do think that whatever view of the text that you take, I [00:35:00] still think that you can find that it's going to align with history in some way.

How that is, I don't know, but in some way.

Cindy Beaver: So with the city part of it, where he's building it, think about this, is that if this is a patriarchal society, Kane has lost his connection with his clan and his family. He's building a city to almost replace the, clan. Now you're having civilization of a mix of unrelated people that are affiliated and their allegiance is to the city.

So it's a new social construct that's occurring here and a step in civilization where we go from only living with your family to now it's groups of people and not only that, but Kane is building this city because he can no longer work the ground, he needs to [00:36:00] barter or do something in order to feed himself because the ground will not produce for him.

So he needs to partner up or get other people to provide food for him. So by building this city, he is creating this new social structure. He's creating a way to feed himself and he's also creating a society where Different vendors and different job opportunities. Well, it's not really a job opportunity, but different trades and things like that can start occurring.

You don't all have to just be you know farmers and subsistence living and raising your own flocks and whatever you do, you know, within your own family, you now have a group of people that are working together. Some are farmers, some are shepherds, some are potters, some know how to , make houses, .

And, and so I think this is really a critical step that we start to see in the [00:37:00] advancement of civilization for all of humanity. And isn't it interesting that it's. It's under the line of Cain that this is occurring.

Carey Griffel: And if you know about how the deities and the people and the land are all connected in the ancient Near East, , and depending on what area and culture you're talking about, they're connected in different ways.

So here we suddenly see people connected to the land and if they're connected to the land we see in history how that is actually played out in the different religions of the ancient Near East Because the deities that were around who are not Yahweh They were connected to the land and so once the people had established those firm foundations in the land then they were more likely to be established within these authorities of the other deities as well.

Cindy Beaver: Yes. And each one would have, you [00:38:00] know, a certain deity over their city and cities always, always, always included temples and palaces for the king. You know, that was, it was for administration. It was for worship and, you know, they did not have , the separation of church and state. It was one and it was all together.

You know and it was the divine right of Kings or whatever, there was always a strong connection between the leader and the, local deity. So all of these things you start to see, I even find it interesting that some of the children in the line of Cain Mahuja'el and Methusha'el, they're theophorific names where they've got the El at the end of the name, and that is calling out to El as God, . Now we don't know if this is El, the Canaanite God El, or if this is El as in Yahweh El, which [00:39:00] God these people are necessarily associated with, but I do find it interesting that the theophorific names even appear within the line of Cain.

So what are your thoughts on the fact that some of these names, like Enoch, appear in both the line of Cain and the line of Seth? Oh, and even though Mahujah El and Methushah El are not exactly replicated, there's similar names. We've got Methuselah on the other side, or even Lamech. that we'll be talking about in the upcoming verses.

Lamech is, is Noah's father.

Carey Griffel: there's a section of, scholarship that think that because they're so similar, they're just two traditions that developed and they were just Put together at some point. So part of that argument , hearkens back to this, the idea of the documentary hypothesis, you know, that [00:40:00] I've talked about before with J E D P, you have all those four sources.

And so the idea here is that these lists of names appeared in different sources, they were just kind of stitched together. But they didn't stitch them together really great because they didn't change the names enough or they didn't change the order or I don't know that that doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me personally.

I think that it's pretty easy to see that they might have just had really similar names to begin with, right? Like , their language would have been such that a lot of their names would have just been the same, and I don't think that's some sort of a problem. So there's that, but I also think there are things that we should be noting when we actually go in and look at that, because whether or not they came from different sources and were edited together, well, the editor knew what he was doing, okay?

So no matter [00:41:00] how this came to be, The editor was smart enough to have done things on purpose, and that's what we see in, every genealogy in the Bible, there are theological points to be made. And so when you're comparing these two things, that's the kind of thinking that you should be looking at,

So in the line of Cain. You have Adam, you have Cain, you have Enoch, who is the third, you have Irad, you have Mahujael, you have Methushael, and then you have Lamech, and then Lamech is said to have three sons. So in the line of Cain, Lamech is the seventh, and Enoch is the third, and if you pay attention to numbers in Scripture, three and seven are, Pretty typical numbers, so that those are probably really important names, which, you know, they are, because Enoch is connected to the city, [00:42:00] and Lamech is connected to other things that we'll see.

And then once you get into the next line, where you have the line of Seth, you have Adam, you have Seth, you have Enosh, which sounds like Enoch, but it isn't Enoch. You have Kenan, you have Mahalalel, and you have Jared, and then you have Enoch, and then it continues on a little longer.

You have Methuselah, Lamech, and Noah, who also like Lamech in the previous genealogy. He has three sons. So there's all of these correlations, but they don't quite add up. They don't line up exactly. So Enoch is the third in the line of Cain, Lamech is the seventh. In the line of Seth, Enoch is the seventh And Lamech is the ninth.

So there's all of these connections and you're like, well, what could that possibly mean? And [00:43:00] part of what you need to do when you are looking at a genealogy is to look at the ways that those words are used and where they have the echoes, right? So let's go ahead and continue reading so that we can see a little bit more about Lamech.

In verse 19 of the ESV it says, And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. Adah bore Jabal. He was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. His brother's name was Jubal. He was the father of all those who play the lyre and the pipe. Zilla also bore Tubul cane.

He was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron. The sister of Tubilcain was Namaah

Cindy Beaver: and in the Septuagint version, verse 19. Lamech took two wives for himself. The name [00:44:00] of the one was Adah, and the name of the second was Zillah. Adah brought forth Jabal. This man was the father of cattle raisers who live in tents.

The name of his brother was Jubal. This man was the one who invented the harp and lyre. Zillah brought forth, even she, Tubal Cain, and he was a hammer using coppersmith of copper and of iron. The sister of Tubal Cain was Namaah.

Carey Griffel: Okay, so we have our whole bunch of other names here. And here we have the first person who has two wives.

Lamech is the first one who has two wives. And some people see that, that it's mentioned here. And, God doesn't come down and throw his lightning bolts at him, so obviously God approved of that, right? Not necessarily, right? That's, that's not how we should be reading things.

Cindy Beaver: No, polygamy doesn't usually [00:45:00] turn out well with the patriarchs.

I mean, although Abraham you know, that didn't go so well with, with Isaac and ishmael. Then you have Jacob, Leah and Rachel. I mean, they did not have an easy relationship and they were always competing with each other for how many boys they could have and this and that and the other thing in which one was loved more or the other. I mean, it was just one old big disaster, which. A part of it was caused by, hmm, somebody named

Lamech. Isn't that interesting? And you know, cause he really just wanted Rachel, but anyway it didn't work out, that way. And that was how we got the, 12 tribes. So again, God works in mysterious ways to make things happen. But, even, the kings of Israel with all of their wives and yes, a lot of them were [00:46:00] marriages for diplomacy purposes like Solomon marrying one of the Pharaoh's daughters to establish an alliance with Egypt and Solomon and all of his wives. And because he was much more into commercial trading and things like that, many, many, many foreign wives, it's really not biblically the ideal at all. And Jesus flat out says that in the gospels you know, one man, one woman is the way it should be.

It's the way it was intended. So here I see this as it's a progression of sin and, and sinful debauchery living. I mean, Everybody up till now has had the one wife thing and now here we've got this guy who is just full of himself and he's going to have two.

The names of the wives mean sweet voice and a pretty face. So he's looking for the [00:47:00] attractive pretty girls to choose from and have as his wife. He's definitely picky, choosing the best.

Carey Griffel: A lot of things would be picked up by the ancient person so easily, we have to do a little bit of digging, but so much of this is really accessible, and you can really find information on all of these names with a quick Google search, even so, I mean, don't trust everything you get from Google, but you can find some solid information.

So,

Cindy Beaver: yeah, I mean, the names are very, very telling. And like you've said the biblical authors were very thoughtful, and they wrote things for a purpose. These names are not necessarily the actual names of the people. The names are indicative of the situation and they're meant to teach us and inform us.

A nod to Tim Steadman for this, but he [00:48:00] suspects that, this is just an inversion of the word melech, meaning king, only it's upside down because he's not a good king, He is corrupted in his taking multiple wives and he is doing things that he shouldn't be doing, so the progression of sin.

Also, you know, it's interesting, and I should have said this earlier, but that you know, Cain was , destined to be wandering forever. Well, he didn't wander forever. He establishes this city and parks his butt somewhere. So even there, he's kind of spiteful, I think of his, of what he thought his destiny was going to be.

Maybe not, maybe it's not spite or Vengeful or, you know, has it, he has an attitude about him and he's like, I'm not going to do it, you know, just because it looks like this, I'm fighting against my, my destiny. But I do think that there is something to his decision to found a city. And again, talking [00:49:00] about, you know, the need for employment, the need for all of this, he had needs, it makes sense that he did it, but is there also some spitefulness to the establishment of the city?

Carey Griffel: Right. Well, and, you know, we tend to look forward chronologically, right? So you had Cain and then you had all of the sons. But when you have the biblical text, it's all kind of mixed up in one thing. The attitude of the sons was probably a reflection of the attitude of the father. That's just how they saw things.

And I mean, and that's how it tends to work, right? Like when you Raise your child a certain way your child is going to be very similar to you and in most cases Especially in the world back then when families were so close knit. Like today we can really leave our parents we can just abandon them and have nothing to do with them Anymore really wasn't the case back then you were so closely connected to your family [00:50:00] That you weren't just going to go off out of spite, right, and do something different. You are going to be very similar to your parents.

Cindy Beaver: Unless something catastrophic happens. Yes. And you learn and you, you model what you learn. You are rewarded for the behavior that they want and Yeah. It's not like they're going to be exposed to a lot of different variety of role models the way we are.

So definitely.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point.

Cindy Beaver: You can see that it's going to perpetuate itself and accelerate.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. And another reason to really kind of latch on to the meaning of the names of the wives is it's so rare that women are even mentioned in the genealogies, and they're always mentioned for particular purposes.

We might not always understand those purposes, but they're [00:51:00] there for a reason. , Cain's wife isn't mentioned, but Lamech's wives are both mentioned. And also, interestingly enough Tubal Cain's sister is mentioned.

Cindy Beaver: Yes, her name is Namaah, which means beautiful or pleasant. I just find it interesting that this is potentially a foreshadowing of the Genesis 6 event.

So you've got these wives, you know, and , beautiful and, and sweet voice. And now you've got Namaah, who is also pretty, , when the sons of God looked at the daughters of men who were beautiful and they lusted after them. You know, here is the seed for that. And in fact, Namaah could have been one of the wives because now you see her brother and you see her stepbrothers are starting to invent things that promote even more civilization and is this the [00:52:00] forbidden knowledge that mankind shouldn't have had? I mean, look at Tubal Cain, he was the hammer using coppersmith of copper and of iron. Well, yes, you can put those two good uses, but, you know copper and iron are oftentimes used for war and fighting, cutting. The harp and the lyre, those, you know, music is used everywhere, but they are used in sacred rituals and things like that. And especially some of these can almost be used in hypnotic type music to get you into a state where you might have more contact with the unseen realm and the demonic presences that are out there. So I, and again, that's just reading into the text, but I do find it interesting. And Enoch talks about it, that, you know, this is what happened. Those sons of God brought these skills and he mentions these. Even [00:53:00] Jabal, he's the father of cattle raisers who live in tents. Cattle raisers, we're not looking at herds. We're not just looking at a small flock of sheep to sustain our, family with, wool and with some meat occasionally. Massive amounts to sustain a large population.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, it's really interesting that it mentions the city and then, oh, he's the father of people who dwelt in tents, like, Wait, what? Yeah. Why are they still dwelling in tents?

Cindy Beaver: But, you know, if you think about, they would have had to have been out further from the city, but they definitely could have a connection to the city and that they're the ones that are bringing the herds for sacrifices, for market, and all of that type of stuff.

But they had to live in tents because they couldn't live in the city, you know, so I can see where that goes. I mean, it could also be, the whole nomadic. I mean, Abraham lived in tents and had herds. So, this [00:54:00] is a lifestyle, and this is the book of Genesis, The Beginnings.

This explains where, the Bedouin tribes come from.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, well, and that's part of it, , if you're just reading it in English, and you're trying to make these extremely straightforward English connections, You're just not going to get there until you kind of think a little bit outside of the modern box.

Cindy Beaver: Yeah, you have to put yourself in the, you know, what does it take if I was living, , in 2, 500 BC in Iridu, until you stop and think about it you know, you don't realize

Carey Griffel: We were talking about The connection of this chapter with northern and southern Israel in that context.

And if you do a word search on this sister's name, Namaah, well, where does she show up at?

Cindy Beaver: Yes, this is not the only Namaah [00:55:00] that's in the Bible.

Carey Griffel: So, Namaah is the sister of the one who forged instruments of bronze and iron. So, we're probably thinking weapons here, right? So, we're probably thinking of somebody who's making weapons of war.

And she shows up again in the book of 1 Kings. In 1 Kings 14, She is the mother of Rehoboam, who is the son of Solomon, who was the next king. And I actually want to go ahead and read a section of Lexham Bible Dictionary, just so we can get a good context of what's going on in this story with Rehoboam.

So Rehoboam shows up in 1 Kings 12 through 14 and 2 Chronicles 10 through 12. And this is what it says in Lexham Bible Dictionary. Rehoboam ascended to the throne after the death of his [00:56:00] father, King Solomon, and traveled to Shechem, an area that was the center of Israelite tradition from the time of Joshua and the Judges.

Rather than accepting Rehoboam automatically, the northern leaders negotiated for less strenuous labor demands and lower taxes. In response to their request, Rehoboam sought advice from two groups of counselors, experienced elders and young contemporaries with whom he had consorted all his life. The elders advised Rehoboam to act favorably toward the people, and in turn, receive their favor.

In contrast, the young contemporaries advised Rehoboam to assert his control by increasing the workload. Rehoboam chose to follow the young advisors. As a result, he angered the northern messengers, and 1 Kings 12. 15 explains that Rehoboam acted this way because God was using him to fulfill the prophecy delivered by Ahijah the prophet.

Which promised that the northern [00:57:00] tribes would be removed from Davidic rule. The northern tribes declared their freedom from the Davidic line of kings, and from that point on, north and south represented two distinct kingdoms. Rehoboam made one last effort to control the north by asking Adoram, the chief of the labor gangs, to put the northern tribes back to work for him.

However, when Israel killed Adoram, fled south, and Israel then named Jeroboam king over the north. Rehoboam collected his forces, and those of the tribes of Benjamin, and prepared to launch war against the north. There's our weapons right there. However, he halted when Shemaiah the prophet stated that God had caused the division.

This, however, was a rare instance in which Rehoboam obeyed God. The text indicates that he built worship places and allowed cultic prostitution for foreign gods. During reign, Pharaoh Shishak marched north [00:58:00] from Egypt and attacked Jerusalem, ransacking the temple and taking all of its treasures, including the gold shields put there by Solomon.

1 Kings 14. 27 records that Rehoboam crafted shields of bronze, there's bronze again, to replace the gold ones. Rehoboam died after reigning for 17 years. And then it says in Second Chronicles 10 through 12, it offers several more details about Rehoboam's life. The text specifies that some northerners lived in the south and served King Rehoboam.

It also indicates that Rehoboam strengthened the fortifications of 15 cities in Judah and Benjamin, the two tribes he controlled. Deprived of priestly privileges and duties in the north, Levites and priests fled southward. Many others joined the stream of people flowing south.

Chronicles indicates that Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines and fathered 28 sons and 60 daughters. Second Chronicles records that [00:59:00] Rehoboam and the people's disobedience to God brought about the invasion of Shishak, who captured Judah's fortified cities. Shemaiah, the prophet, interpreted Shishak's destructive invasion as God's work against a people who had abandoned him.

and his people humbled themselves, God reduced his sentence to a little deliverance.

All right, so that was kind of a long quote, but I really think you can kind of shove all of that into Genesis 4, really. You have the wars, you have the north versus the south, you have the weapons, you have all of these different themes, and the cities, the fortified cities.

All of those are really echoes from Genesis 4.

Cindy Beaver: Absolutely, and then to have Namaah pop in there even, you're right, it's, right in there. And the cities , that they built. They were fortified. It was for [01:00:00] protection and all of that.

So it wasn't just like, you know, a group of houses that turned itself into a city. It was a deliberate place that was built for protection.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, yeah, it wasn't some organic thing that just kind of grew. No, , they intentionally built these for their specific purposes.

Cindy Beaver: Yep. Interestingly enough I was reading David Rohl's book on, some of the biblical archaeology and , he has this different chronology and his thought is that, Based on what he reads of the exploits and adventures that Shishak is Ramses the Great his nickname in, Egypt would have been something like CC or she, she, so you all of a sudden start getting shishak and doesn't it make a heck of a lot of sense that a very powerful Pharaoh like Ramses, who we know did attack [01:01:00] and take the fortified cities that he would have been the one to do it. To go against rebellious Israel and ransack Jerusalem.

There are disputes about David Rohl and his Theories and things like that. But he makes a strong case for this. And I think it is very, very interesting to just to consider that Ramses the Great is occurring at this time and that there is a far earlier Pharaoh that would have been at the Exodus,

Carey Griffel: , and then once you throw in the fact that chronology is, as Dr. Heiser says, a quagmire. Well, David Roll does have some really interesting ideas about that chronology.

Cindy Beaver: Right, I think his Patterns of Evidence that he has are really, really good and even Heiser did recommend taking a look at that.

And I do believe that his story about Ramses the Great is in that, [01:02:00] those series of episodes.

Carey Griffel: All right, let's go ahead and just continue our reading. starting in verse 23 of the ESV, it says, Lamech said to his wives, Adah and Zillah, hear my voice, you wives of Lamech.

Listen to what I say. I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for striking me. If Cain's revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech's is seventy sevenfold.

Cindy Beaver: And in the Septuagint it says, Lamech said to his wives, Adah and Zillah, hear my voice, wives of Lamech, give ear to my words, because I killed a man for a wound to me, and a young man for a bruise to me, because sevenfold revenge has been given to Cain, but from Lamech seventy seven times.

So or 70 times seven, I guess it says here. So Lamech himself is the one that is extracting vengeance. He's, [01:03:00] he's really vicious. I don't want to cross him. I mean, this is definitely not an eye for an eye at all. You know I killed a man for wounding me and it could be a young man, meaning a very young boy for bruising me.

And I do just, you know, throw him up against the wall and break his neck because of, you know, some minor infraction. , again, you're seeing sin is just permeating society now. It's growing and expanding, and here we are in a city, and this is what happens in cities.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, it doesn't give a whole lot of detail as to what happened, but it's pretty clear that Lamech is kind of a hothead, and he thinks he can just get away with whatever, obviously. Yep. And I mean, it's, this is how humanity kind of [01:04:00] works, right? We like getting away with things.

Cindy Beaver: Our sinful side, definitely you know, and how far can we go until we're caught or reprimanded?

Jesus reverses this. When Peter asked him, how many times should we forgive? Seventy times seven, exactly the same amount that Lamech is wanting to extract revenge and vengeance.

Carey Griffel: Almost as if, if we were on the receiving end of his vengeance, we're supposed to forgive him.

What? Why? Why would we do that? But that's not a comfortable thought to us. We don't like that. We like the eye for the eye and the tooth for the tooth. Unless we're the ones who is getting the vengeance, right? So, I don't know. Kind of convicting stuff,

Cindy Beaver: In this situation with Lamech the vengeance side of things, it can be very, very hard to forgive. Although if you look at this example, I killed a man for [01:05:00] wounding me. No, I need to forgive him for wounding me. I killed a young man for a bruise to me again, forgive him.

The right thing to do is provide that forgiveness and mercy.

But then if we do start thinking about the more Lamech behavior, okay, so the wife of the young man that just was killed by Lamech and she needs to forgive him, how hard that would be. And yet we are asked, and

Carey Griffel: yet we are called to do that. And, we don't see that happening a whole lot in the Old Testament.

I wonder why , like, we're only equipped to do that with Christ, coming with, the help of God. Like we are not capable of putting away these base human emotions enough to really. Rise to the level of, this kind of forgiveness, I think. I mean, we might want to say, yeah, I could forgive somebody.

Really? I mean, really? [01:06:00] Like, could you really forgive anybody, anything, any kind of a situation like that? I would find it hard. I think most of us would. And, And yet we're called to do that and we're equipped to do that in the spirit in some sense, but that doesn't make it easy though.

Cindy Beaver: No. No, it doesn't. And there's also the whole forgiveness versus forgetting. You may never actually forget. But forgiveness is actually healing for you. I mean, and hopefully the other person too, but to carry around that bitterness and sadness and feeling of being victimized versus the healing that comes by, Letting it go and letting be entrusted to God.

God will set things right in his time. You may not see it in this lifetime.[01:07:00] We have been assured in the Bible that all things will be set right. So that can give you some peace of mind in working on being more forgiving even in difficult situations, don't let that stay in you and open yourself up to a sinful life , and destroying you. Again. It's easy to sit here and say that it's harder to apply it.

But the truth is there of forgiveness is so healing for both parties.

Carey Griffel: We know a lot of people and this could be ourselves that we have a hard time forgiving ourselves. And that's, that's a rough thing. Like, we don't want to forgive ourselves. We don't want to give ourselves a free pass for our behavior.

When we see that we have done something, And we feel guilt for that and we want to rectify it and most of the time we're not [01:08:00] capable of rectifying anything ourselves. that's why we need God to do that. And yet we need, forgiveness for ourselves just as much as other people need forgiveness from us as well.

And sometimes that's even harder than forgiving another person, I think.

Cindy Beaver: Yes, because we hold ourselves to such a high standard. We have such high expectations.

Carey Griffel: We do. And we think, well, what's wrong with that? Well, that's a good thing. But you know what? You're worthy of forgiveness just as much as anyone.

And sometimes that's, it's hard to accept.

Cindy Beaver: Yep. If God can forgive, then you can forgive yourself.

And sometimes that's hard to believe that God would ever forgive you for it, but he says he has. Look at Paul. Paul was murdering members of the new church. He says that I am the worst of all sinners.[01:09:00] And yet, God gave him one of the greatest jobs that was ever needed by the church and we benefit from his words to this day.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. we tend to kind of brush under the carpet the number of murders that there are in the Bible. And people who murder who are then called righteous or then called, you know, David, the man after God's own heart. want to forget those things because we remember them, it's harder for us to hold on to this idea that we, we ourselves cannot be forgiven because most of us are not murderers.

And yet we hold ourselves to that high of a standard, but

Cindy Beaver: yes, David, you know I, I struggled and struggled for a long time with how is it that David is a man after God's own heart because I mean, he had Uriah killed he, you know, all of the. Stuff. And even on his deathbed, he's like [01:10:00] you know, it, it

Hey, slowly come here. You gotta take care of these people. You know, and crossing off the list. It's almost like a, you know, a mob boss scenario. Godfather episode. But. But he was loyal to Yahweh always, always, always, always. He never worshiped or bowed down to any other God. And that is what it means to be a man of God's heart.

that kind of loyalty.

Carey Griffel: When we think of David, I think a lot of times. Yeah, he did all these bad things, but then he repented and he was perfect. No, he wasn't perfect after that. Just like you said to his deathbed. He still was kind of not the best guy in. From some perspectives, and yet, here we are.

Cindy Beaver: Yep. I mean, he was a horrible father with all of his sons and the rivalries and how they, you know, were, staking out who's going to be the [01:11:00] next one. I mean, he could have handled his whole succession so much differently. Absalom and all of them. I mean, it was just, it was just terrible, terrible.

That is one of the most screwed up families you've ever seen in the Bible.

Carey Griffel: Right? Yeah, it's like, well, how come you could have a good king and then all these bad kings? Well, I mean, look at what a bad father the good king ended up being. So, yeah. You can kind of tie that into the, whole narrative of the kingdom and how the people were the ones who were wanting the kingdom and God's like, okay, here you go.

Good luck!.

Cindy Beaver: They wanted one like all the others had, and that is what they got. The whole mess, and intrigue, and taxation, and oppression, you asked for it, so be careful what you ask for, because it's not. It's not necessarily going to be what you thought you'd get.[01:12:00]

Carey Griffel: we have gone kind of long, but let's just go ahead and finish the chapter anyway. I will read the last two verses of Genesis 4 in the ESV.

And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son, and called his name Seth. For she said, God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel. For Cain killed him.

To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time, people began to call upon the name of the Lord.

Cindy Beaver: My version says, Adam knew Eve, his wife, and once she conceived, she brought forth a son and called his name Seth, saying, Because God raised up another offspring for me in the place of Abel, whom Cain killed.

Seth had a son, and he called his name Enosh. This one hoped to invoke the name of the Lord God. I think that's an interesting, different sentence [01:13:00] than what is in the ESV.

Carey Griffel: I know a lot of people wonder, what does that mean? Is this the first time that they're calling to the Lord? I don't think that makes a whole lot of sense because they were offering sacrifices to God in the first of the chapter.

Cindy Beaver: Exactly. It's like, yeah, they're beginning to worship God. No, it's not that. I particularly like Tim Steadman's. Conclusion is that here we are with the line of Cain and it's, it's kind of oddly placed, but we're with the, the line of Cain and we see, you know, how bad it's gotten with Lamech and, his polygamy and killing people and vengeance and all of this, that what they're doing is the people Are crying out to God because of the oppression that they are experiencing.

And so it's not a worshiping and , I've even read things [01:14:00] where, Oh, this is where people are starting to worship idols. No, I truly believe that it's the situation is getting bad. And just like the Israelites were crying out to God when they were being oppressed by Egypt, here is. The first instance in the Bible where people are crying out to God asking for help, save us.

Carey Griffel: I really agree with that. None of the other explanations I've heard make a whole lot of sense.

Cindy Beaver: What it goes to show is that, like, much of the Bible. I mean, there's a lot of different scholarly opinions.

I mean, you can read all sorts of different commentaries and what they're thinking. They're not necessarily wrong. It's just another facet to the diamond of what we call the Bible. I, there are certain things that make more sense to me because of my education and the things that I've read [01:15:00] and the things that I've encountered.

But I'm not going to poo poo somebody else's unless it's just really way out there. I, I, they may have a valid case, a reason why.

Carey Griffel: this is going to apply to prayer, right? Like, people are praying because they're calling out to God. So, there is that, and we don't see an instance of what we might call prayer previous to this.

So I think the idea that this is prayer makes a whole lot of sense. Suddenly, they find them the need for prayer, but I, but again, why are they finding a need for prayer? It's because they're being oppressed.

Cindy Beaver: Yes, absolutely. Well, we made it through the end of the chapter.

Carey Griffel: We did. It was pretty amazing.

Cindy Beaver: And there's so much more we could have gone into. I mean, we could have really talked about wandering and how, you [01:16:00] know, Abraham was a wanderer. He never settled anywhere. The Exodus generation wandered. David wandered. Jesus wandered. What does all that mean? You know is wandering good or bad?

There's some phrases in Deuteronomy that says that even when you settle in the land, don't settle down, you know, so like the Kenites, they always lived in tents and they moved around the other. They had a territory, but they didn't settle down totally the whole dispersion as a wandering, you know, so and the fact that Babel the people after the Babel event, that's what the whole thing was, is get your butt out, don't settle down, wander, get around the world to, you know, so there's a lot to wandering that we could, could go into.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, there's so much nuance, so much nuance. And that's what I [01:17:00] was thinking too is, like, There is exile and there is wandering and they're connected, but yet they're different and they have different meanings.

I hope everyone had a good time with our episode like we did.

And thank you once again, Cindy, for joining me today.

Cindy Beaver: Oh, thank you very, very much. I really enjoyed our time together today.

Carey Griffel: So, I hope that we will see you again soon. You got it.

All right. Well, that is it for this episode, and I hope you guys enjoyed it. We did go a little long, but sometimes that's just the way it's gonna go.

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