Heaven Calling (Worship, Part 1) - Episode 041

Carey Griffel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Genesis Marks The Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and today I have with me again, Cindy Beaver. And we are going to be diving into the topic of worship that we are super excited about. If you're on my Facebook group, then you may have seen some of the discussion about that.

People have been submitting questions that they have regarding worship. And we hope to get to those at some point in the series. We won't today, because today we're going to be setting the groundwork of the conversation. We want to do... A basic introduction of how we can see worship and how we can start studying it for ourselves in scripture beginning in the book of Genesis.

[00:01:00] So we're going to be giving a little bit of intro and going to be going through at least the first part of Genesis as to where we can possibly see the topic of worship. And beyond that... That's probably all we'll be able to do in this episode, and then in future episodes we'll be continuing that, and we will be delving into the specific topics, really trying to get into what worship is, what it means, why we do it, what it looks like, what it should look like for us today, and how that connects with the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, and particularly Genesis, it's really going to end up being a wide ranging discussion, I think, and I'm super excited about that.

So, welcome Cindy, thank you for coming and joining me on this.

Cindy Beaver: Oh, thank you, Carey, for inviting me. I really enjoy our conversations and worship is definitely a complex topic that, it's very appropriate that this is a [00:02:00] series and not just a one off episode. and yeah, let's get to it.

Carey Griffel: So the first thing we want to talk about is just the idea of study methods and how we can even approach the topic of worship because it's so much more than just looking at one word or even a certain set of Actions that the people are doing in scripture.

My goal is to create a matrix of ideas. We want to have a variety of concepts in our minds, and we want to start sifting through those things and trying to put them into categories as to, is this worship? Is this something else? Is this connected to worship in some way?

And so there's some cautions I will give here, because It's really easy to do word studies, and we start seeing these hyperlinks, and many of them are directly connected to our topic, [00:03:00] and they add to the meaning, and they fill out the picture in our minds, but sometimes they don't.

Sometimes the word is just used in a normal way, sometimes it's used in an unconnected way, and so we're going to be casting our net very broadly. But I don't want you to think that everything we catch is necessarily going to end up in our complete picture at the end.

Because it won't necessarily end up that way. We don't assume the connections. We don't assume the importance at first. We're just casting our nets into the sea of the Bible and bringing everything we can so that we can then sort through it all and trying to figure out If it fits, if it doesn't fit. And we're not going to be doing all of that work today. Today we're doing the work of casting the net. And so, part of this is also a really good way to build our mental images of the biblical world. [00:04:00] How did they live? What were their lives like? What were they concerned about? Why were they concerned about those things? And how did they get to the point of being concerned about those things?

And the book of Genesis in particular is super interesting because it's the first book of our Bible. We think of it as the beginning of the creation and the beginning of the story of the world, right? I mean, that's how it's presented. But the book of Genesis was written or compiled or whatever you want to say at a later date.

So when they were writing it, when they were putting all of this material together, they already had... word pictures and concepts of so many things that are just going to be assumed in the book of Genesis. And so that makes it really hard because we're not seeing the introduction of everything in the book of Genesis.

We're just seeing concepts that are first appearing [00:05:00] there, but that doesn't mean The genesis is explaining how they got there, or explaining the origin of the topic, or the concept. So it's really hard because we don't want to be inserting later understanding into an earlier text as good faith readers, but at the same time, to some degree, you have to do that with Genesis because it's already in a context. And that's very difficult for us today because we are not in that context. We have a much broader context with way more history than the Book of Genesis's. So we try and fit the Book of Genesis in to that historical narrative as best we can.

And I think building these concepts and just really wrestling with how they appear in the text and what they mean, that's going to be really, really helpful. So that's my spiel about the word studies and the study methods we're going to be using and the cautions that [00:06:00] we have. Cindy, did you have anything to add to that?

Cindy Beaver: I think too, when we're looking at Genesis, we do have to put on the eyes of an ancient Israelite. , on Sunday mornings, when we go to church and do worship, that is not anything like what they did. well, I mean, there may be some things, but it's not reflective of, of what's being described in Genesis.

And so we have to take those blinders off. and, and start thinking again and looking at some of these words and how, and keep in mind that Genesis two is, it's the, , beginnings, , that's what Genesis means. , , and so how is it that people began to worship? What were they doing? What was important to them? And, and similar to what you said, what were they thinking? What was, what were their fears? What were their concerns? What were their questions? And so what we're thinking today, , 3, 000 years later is, , or more [00:07:00] very, very different. , so again, it's, it's about context. , and then how do we bring that forward into meaning in our own lives?

Carey Griffel: Yeah, absolutely. And I hope that this is going to be helpful for many people as we dive into this. , and again, you know, it's, even when we're tracing these word patterns and things, when we come across something, it might not directly correlate to our topic, but nonetheless, that's going to inform our view of the word, and what it means, and the entire concept of it.

So, , even if it's not... Important with a capital I. All of the things that we're gonna be looking at are going to be in important at, in an informative way. We just need to eventually tease all of that out as to what that looks like and how that's going to be. And that takes time and it takes work. Bible study is actual work.

We don't just pick up our [00:08:00] Bibles and understand it all.

Cindy Beaver: It's like a jigsaw puzzle. And I have this piece, you know, and where does it fit? , all sorts of different pieces, all sorts of different shapes, but that it's when you put it together that you get a very, very interesting picture.

Carey Griffel: , that's a great metaphor because if we're doing Bible studies together, then we have more pieces that we can put together because more people are bringing the pieces together and helping to see where they fit.

Cindy Beaver: Yes, some people have a good eye for finding those edge pieces. ,

Carey Griffel: Cindy, do you want to give us just a brief, basic description of how we understand worship in general today?

Cindy Beaver: So, , I looked up, you know, a definition of worship and it's, , an act or a practice expressing devotion, reverence, and adoration towards God. It often involves rituals, ceremonies, prayers, or other religious or spiritual practices. , so [00:09:00] worship is really the feeling or the expression of reverence, adoration, and loyalty for a deity. And, you know, saying a deity, depending on if you're Christian or not, , it may not be Yahweh and Jesus, it might be somebody else.

Carey Griffel: Yes, and that's interesting because we tend to think of worship as Like, there's only a right way to worship. And so, you box it in even more exclusively than this broad definition of, other people could be worshipping too, they're just not worshipping the same thing. And that's another question we're going to be wrestling with in this series, is, how do those things fit into the general concept of worship as we should see it?

And like, you know, we see bad worship. Bad worship has to still be worship. Otherwise, it couldn't be bad worship, right? and then you have the concept of bad [00:10:00] worship versus anti worship. And are those the same thing or are they different? And how do those compare with worship in the right way and the way we should be thinking about it?

all of those are, they're big topics, you know, definitely. And part of the hard thing that we have to do here is that it's hard to tell sometimes whether something in the Bible is just there because that's what happened or that was the context or whether it's there because God wants it there, like it's the right thing to do. It's the right way to see it. It's the right practice.

And there's kind of a difference there because the Bible has all kinds of things and some of those things are prescriptive and some of those things are only descriptive. And , those words are related, prescriptive and descriptive. They're the things that the Bible is presenting to us. [00:11:00] But the things that are prescriptive, that's kind of like the word prescription, it's something that's good for you, it's something that's necessary for your life.

So something that's prescriptive, the Bible is saying, this is the right way. This is what you should be doing. This is the structure that God wants, this is basically God's will and how we should be living our life. That's the prescriptive things in scripture. Whereas the descriptive things in scripture, they're just there because they're there. It's not that God's put it there, it's not necessarily inspired from, you know, the right way of doing things and what God wants us to do. That's just happened to be how it was for the people. And those things can be quite difficult to sort out.

Cindy Beaver: Well, exactly. Because a lot of times people think that, this is just a description, but actually it's a theological point that's being made.

, so it, it [00:12:00] can be very, very difficult to, interpret or to know for sure whether is this just a descriptive detail or is there a nuance to this that I'm reading? I always like, you know, how Mike Heiser, if it's weird, it's important. Yeah. You know, um,

Carey Griffel: yeah, yeah, and I think it's true. Yeah. Yeah.

And then the question is, it's weird. So is it weird because , they had a different culture and that's just a very strange and different thing than our culture. Or is it weird because it doesn't correspond with our natural lives, so to speak, but it does correspond with how our theological and religious and spiritual lives should be.

And it's, it can be hard to sort these things out. That's why Bible study and scholarly pursuits are group activities. It's not just individuals out there telling everybody, I found this truth and you all have to listen to me.[00:13:00] it's an act of the body of Christ and the images of God coming together to work all of this out.

Cindy Beaver: So I want to just kind of throw out some of the words that when I think of worship, these come to mind and they're given in the Bible, , but praise, , blessing, offering, sacrifice. Even to turn towards, you know, like, uh, did God, , turn his face toward me or is he turning his face away from me? , to petition and ask for things, to swear a vow, , fruit of the spirit, , divine service, uh, you know, service, , on behalf of, , the divine.

Even Idolatry or harlotry, uh, is referred to in, the prophetic words of, , you know, Israel is supposed to be the wife of God. , and when she chases after idols and other gods, um, she's [00:14:00] called a harlot. as opposed to being reverent or revering God, , adoring, , paying homage to, and then physically the bowing down or even, you know, face planting, you know, from the ground.

It's a gesture of respect or submission, you know, that you need to submit yourself to God , and defer. My will versus is, is less consequential than God's. I mean, Jesus in the, , the garden of Gethsemane, , is, you know, thy will be done. So those are just, when I was initially just thinking about worship, those, terms just kind of popped in my head. And so kind of threw down that list of those are some of the things, some of the thoughts or, images that we should think about when we're looking in the Bible, , for worship practices, because, , especially in the [00:15:00] Old Testament, I mean, so yeah, we've got Leviticus and I mean, but a lot of what's covered in the Pentateuch is much more a description of this is what the tabernacle and how it should be set up and all of the different holy places. And then you get into Leviticus where it talks about the different sacrifices for what I refer to as sin management. But it doesn't really give you a liturgy of this is how, you know, a church service should go, uh, I don't see any of that, you know, really, , you start to see bits and pieces of it more in the New Testament when Paul is writing to, you know, like Corinth and telling them, don't just You know, take communion, without reverence , and, , mentioning the readings and mentioning, , you know, the singing of Psalms, but it's not like you get [00:16:00] a nice package of, okay, first you're going to do this and then you're going to do that.

That all came way later. And so, , that's what I think is so exciting about this series is what do we see in Genesis in the beginning? Relationship. I mean, it's all about talking with God. It's about walking with God. That's what's in Genesis one and two. God walked with them in the garden. , they learned from him, they had relationship.

And so that's really the core of what worship is supposed to be in my mind. It's it's fellowship. It's communion. And I don't mean communion, like the Eucharist. I mean, communion, like community.

Carey Griffel: Oh, thanks for that, Cindy. That's awesome. Because like you just threw that list of things that came to your mind and that's what we can all do.

It's like, when I think of worship. I can just list all of the things that come to mind, and then you can go to scripture [00:17:00] and tease out, am I looking at it accurately? Do I have a good view of what worship is? Am I thinking of it in a biblical way? And you can actually go to the Bible and say, hmm, this is how I see it, and this seems to fit, but this doesn't quite fit, and maybe I need to adjust this here and there, and And in that process, we get a much more complete picture of it.

And also it becomes, when I do a study like that, it's like it gets ingrained into myself in a way that it's not going to get ingrained into myself just listening to a sermon on a Sunday morning or even just reading a book because I've really dug in and done some work myself.

Cindy Beaver: I agree. And I think that's where the word study really helps is you come up with your list first and then go to a Bible dictionary or an encyclopedia, you know, or whatever reference materials you want to [00:18:00] use because then you start chasing those threads of, oh, wait a minute. You know, altar is a place where sacrifices were offered. Okay. So sacrifice is something, you know, , and even the materials... does it matter what the altar was made of, you know, there's times where, , they were supposed to be unhewn stones that were used, but not everybody made altars that way. Some of them use bricks, so does the form of what the altar looks like, does that really matter? , you know, and then within sacrifices even. , does it matter if it's an animal? We talked about this when we were going through, , Genesis 4. , no, it doesn't have to be an animal. It does not have to be a blood sacrifice. There was, , the wheat, the semolina, I think, sacrifices, um, wine, oil, incense. was offered. All of these different things, [00:19:00] were prescribed, and offered to the different gods. And then even if you think about the animal sacrifices, the pagans, , , , had different animals. They , had no compunction about using pigs. But, you know, Yahweh was very, very specific about clean versus unclean animals. And, what's that all about?

Carey Griffel: Yeah. So I'm sure everybody can be like, Oh, we understand now why this series is going to be so long.

There really is just so much and, and I, I don't know, it's a beautiful topic because this, this should be our life. We should be living lives of worship. So I just think it's an incredibly interesting and fruitful topic for ourselves to study in particular. Right? Well, I think that we can go ahead and just dive right into what we see in Genesis.

And I think [00:20:00] you already brought out the ideas that we see at first of God's presence with us, His walking with us, His speaking and teaching us to humanity.

Cindy Beaver: And just being in his presence, and the fact that... We could be. Humans could be in God's presence. They could see him and interact with him. And, , there was no fear. there was no death by holiness,

Carey Griffel: right?

Cindy Beaver: , type of a thing, at least not in the very, very beginning. It there was harmony.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. And this idea that you just brought up, the death by holiness. And this is what we see in Leviticus and in other places in scripture, where the presence of God is so holy that you can be just killed by it.

And so there's kind of an idea that people have noticed and thought [00:21:00] about as far as worship and our interaction with God and how he interacts with us, that when we get into Genesis, first there's that, that intimate closeness where God is walking with us in the garden. And then they leave , and then suddenly that's where we actually see the offerings and the sacrifices first.

And the calling upon the name. We don't see that until they're kicked out of the garden and things progress through time. And as you keep reading through Genesis, , God was still, seemed quite present in Genesis 4, there wasn't a whole lot of distance, there was some distance, but it wasn't, it wasn't too much there.

But as it goes along, it's like God is getting further and further away. And as I think we will see as we trace some of these things, that becomes really evident, and it's not just in the beginning of Genesis, it's like through the entire book. [00:22:00] God is distancing himself as he, as he goes, or, or that's what it looks like in some ways.

Like, what do you think about that?

Cindy Beaver: you're saying that and I'm like, is he really doing that or is it us? Cain, , after he kills Abel, he leaves, he deliberately leaves and goes to the land of Nod, which is across, it's further away. , he made that choice. , and so how much of the distance between us and God is Because of the choices we make? You look at the story of the prodigal son, and you see that God the father is represented by the father, he is constantly out there and the minute that the son is coming back and and truly wants to, you know, return home in whatever manner he [00:23:00] possibly can.... God is out there. , and clothing him again and welcoming him into the fellowship. So I don't think that God is deliberately going away. , but I do think that people drift further and further away to the point where God did , , you know at the tower of Babel, I mean, there's evidence that God did divorce humanity.

And that he assigned lesser Elohim over the nations. Now those lesser Elohim were supposed to be helping guide, teach, to get humanity turned around and pointed back in the right direction. And maybe some of them kind of did it, but a lot of them fell to temptation and, , wound up accepting worship themselves.

And that's where a lot of the idolatry and all of the , gods, pagan gods came from, [00:24:00] but, , I, I think , it's humans. I don't think it's God moving away.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, I think you're right because every time something happens, it's like immediately after that, God does something to call people back and to bring them back to himself.

Cindy Beaver: And he shows grace. There's always an aspect of forgiveness. He clothes Adam and Eve. He gives Cain a sign of protection. So, , there's always, , yeah, you made a mistake and there are consequences. There's always going to be a consequence, but there's also still grace, a blessing of some kind to help them.

Carey Griffel: And you know, I think , there's an important question here, I think. So we see the theme , that there's the distancing going on. And then I think that sometimes we get this idea that what's going on later, then, is [00:25:00] somehow less than what it was before. It's imperfect. It's not good enough in some way.

, like the, the communication and connection we get with God later in scripture as opposed to earlier.... , I think, of course, we would all be like, well, of course, we'd kind of like to be with God in the garden and have that completely intimate relationship with him. That's the goal. But is it really the case that the later time of more ritual and things like that, are those genuinely lesser? Are they somehow not as good of worship or something like that? Do you see what I'm saying here? My question of.... This idea that, well, if we were all perfect, then we wouldn't have to have this substandard worship now. I'm not sure that's the right way to look at it.

Cindy Beaver: No, I don't think so either. And again, I think [00:26:00] it's, it's about our brokenness. because you look at some of the experiences of the prophets and the saints, , and how close they were able to come to God. But you have to want it and you have to realize that you're broken and cruddy and you need healing and, you need God. , and God will even use bad, rotten, awful people, you know, Abraham was not perfect by any chance of, I mean, he did, uh, sometimes I wonder how we made it through, but, , you know,

he just was, , well, if David was better in that, He always had faith in God, and that's what it means to follow God, you know, to be a man, , [00:27:00] of God's heart, whatever that phrase is.... I'm spacing out on it, but, he was always loyal, but I mean, he did awful things.

And even on his deathbed, I mean, he's telling Solomon that he has to kill off a whole bunch of people, even people that had been somewhat loyal to David. , but the fact is... there were wonderful things that were also accomplished through these people. , and they are ancestors of Jesus and, , So God'll get, he has the luxury of playing the long game and he's willing to start over. , you know, he started over with Abraham and he was ready to start over with Moses after the, the whole calf incident. He's just like, you know what, we're going to start with you. And Moses is like, no, no, no, you can't do that. You know, what are they going to say about you if you do that? So, , , he's [00:28:00] okay with working through a remnant, to put it that way.

I mean, that, the whole remnant theology is, is pervades the Bible.

Carey Griffel: In similar vein, he is good with working through the rituals that we have. And I think that part of this idea that I just brought up is from the context of The idea that ritual itself is substandard. , that ritual is somehow not effective in a way, that it's only symbolic, you know, and it doesn't have a real connection and efficacy in our lives. And I'm not saying that we need to do X, Y, and Z in order to earn our salvation. That's not on the table for this discussion. But what I'm saying as far as efficacy of ritual is that... What ritual does for us is a very real thing.

It's not just a symbol that we kind of nod our heads to and say, [00:29:00] yeah, cool, I get it. But it's something that can genuinely act in our lives in a, in a real way. But I think it's, I think that's hard for a lot of us to understand, especially in our modern culture where I won't even say we're divorced from ritual.

We have a lot of ritual. It's just a very different kind of ritual.

Cindy Beaver: Well, I mean, even baseball players have rituals. I mean, they wear their lucky shirt and they do their little crisscrossy things, you know, yes, that's a superstitious thing, but you know, or, you know, you think of, , movie stars and, , professional musicians that, you know, they have their list of this is all the stuff that I must have in my, room or whatever, , they're staying, , they have a list that's built into their contract of, I must have all these items provided to me. , you know, for when I'm performing.

Carey Griffel: And if they [00:30:00] don't have one of those things, it really, it genuinely affects their ability to do what they do.

Cindy Beaver: Exactly. But I think from a religious perspective, and I'm looking to, you know, the Orthodox church and the divine liturgy, and I mean, they are looking biblically at, , The actions that were performed at the temple and things that are described in the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, and really what they're seeing is, , you can see that it's meant to be, patterned off of the worship that's taking place in heaven, and it's a participation in that timeless worship.

, the cherubim are crying out Holy, holy, holy, in revelation. And we are joining in, in that, call. , and we're participating with the Communion of Saints in that worship atmosphere. Not [00:31:00] all churches today have that outlook. I mean, you walk in and you're entertained and then you leave and that has bothered me for a long time, which is why I have done some exploration into the Orthodox worship practices and things like that, because I do feel that it's a bit closer.... personally, I feel it's a bit closer to what God's intentions are. I'm not saying that you can't get something out or that God is not worshiped in these other venues. But for me personally, , I am finding an orthodox experience as something, that is helpful to me. And so, but you look at it it's really turning away from yourself and what's in it for me and what I'm getting out of it into giving back to God.

, it's reflecting the praise God is so powerful and so capable , and he created us [00:32:00] little ants. And, he deserves all the glory. He has given us the skills that we have. He has given us the resources that we have. So, how can we recognize just how awesome he is and reflect that glory back to him and just be thankful.

And that's what worship is about.

Carey Griffel: All of that is stuff we will totally be exploring. And I feel like that theme is going to be cropping up time and time again in our series, because I really do want to look at all those things that you just mentioned and how they may or may not fit in the concept of worship and what our view of that and , our participation in that might affect that somehow or not.

So, yeah....So we've decided that we won't get too much into the idea of offerings and sacrifices in this episode because it's a pretty big topic. We're all fairly [00:33:00] certain that that does absolutely have something to do with what worship is.

Cindy Beaver: So do we want to start, , looking at some of the things in Genesis, some of the words and places?

Carey Griffel: Yeah, absolutely. , so we kind of talked about the presence of God and the walking with God, , but I think we'll save that for a moment as, we go, because , that shows up. elsewhere, but I want to connect with what we were talking about last time at the end of Genesis 4, where the people were calling on the name of the Lord.

And for those who either haven't listened to that episode, , or it's been a little while and they don't remember what we said, do you want to kind of review what we said about the idea of calling on the Lord in Genesis 4, 26.

Cindy Beaver: Yeah, so at the end of Genesis, in verses , 25 through the end of the chapter 26, , Adam knew his wife again and she bore a [00:34:00] son and called his name Seth, for she said, God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him. To Seth also a son was born and he called his name Enosh. And at that time, people began to call upon the name of the Lord.

And what we talked about at that time, , was, kind of bringing, , some of the, work from Tim Steadman of answers to giant questions and that, , This in response to, , Cain's lineage, , that, , there was increasing oppression happening. And so that at this time, , people calling on the name of the Lord was actually, , a prayer to, , be freed from this kind of oppression. , so it's an interesting take on what it is. Other interpretations of this is just that at that time people began to call him the name of the Lord, meaning they were worshiping it.

I just [00:35:00] don't think that makes a lot of sense because we saw at the beginning of chapter four, that Cain and Abel were bringing an offering to God. And so I agree that Tim Stedman has a valid point in that by saying this, it really is a cry for help to God.

Carey Griffel: so if we want to kind of dig into this meaning ourselves, that's where our word study comes in.

That's where we take this word, the word calling in particular, and we see where it shows up. And we also see where it shows up in The phrase, or a similar phrase, of calling on the name of the Lord, or calling on the name. Because the fact is, this word in Hebrew, which I might butcher the pronunciation, but it's Qara, so this word is used quite a bit, it's a very common word, in Genesis at least, that's the only place I was looking at it for, [00:36:00] it's used for the naming in Genesis 1 and 2.

So, where God is naming things and where Adam names things in the garden, that's the same word of calling. So, it can be just used as a designation. The cities are named using the same word. So, children are named using this word. So, it's just a very common word, and you can't take every single one of those instances and say that it means we're praying, because obviously that's not what we're doing.

Although it is the case that in the ancient world, when you named something, that was more than just giving it some letters that you were going to pronounce whenever you saw it. When you named something, that meant something very different. So, there is that idea that we could be bringing into our matrix of conceptions when we're thinking about what we call things and what [00:37:00] names are.

Because the word name is used at the end of Genesis 4 here. So that's like two different connections we have as we're building our framework of conception here. And the word is used in Genesis 3, 9, where it says, but the Lord God called to the man and said to him, where are you? So this is God pursuing Adam and Eve after they, did something wrong.

So God is pursuing them and calling for them. It's not that God didn't know where they were, because surely God knew where they were, but he was calling for them, and in a sense that's a petition to the people to come out to God. So, it's like, there's supposed to be a response when you're calling. There's supposed to be something that happens when you call somebody, , at least , as far as our picture here is being built.

And then aside from just people [00:38:00] naming things, it shows up again in Genesis 12, 8. And in Genesis 12 is, of course, the story of Abraham. And in Genesis 12, 8, it says, From there he, Abraham, moved to the hill country on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west, and Ai on the east. And there he built an altar to the Lord and called upon the name of the Lord.

So here we have

Cindy Beaver: two significant acts of worship, you know, he's building an altar and calling on the name of the Lord. So. The altar is definitely intended to be something that is used, , as a commemoration or he could even do a sacrifice. , it doesn't say that he did a sacrifice or an offering, but it's definitely symbolic, , event, that, , wants to be commemorated, remembered that this is [00:39:00] a significant place.

And there's actually three different places, , where Abram builds altars and calls on the name of the Lord. , in one of my, , biblical studies classes that I took, this is the first, Where, , God earlier in the story, God, well, if you've been in the beginning of chapter, , 12, go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you and I will make of you a great nation and I will bless you and make your name great so that you will be a blessing.

And so Abraham went as the Lord told him. Basically, what he's doing is he is doing a survey of the land that has been promised to him. And he builds an altar in the northern part, in the central part, and then in the southern part of the promised land. , so even though he never actually receives it as, , you know, the deed or the title [00:40:00] of owning the entire land, he is looking at it from a perspective of Ownership, , that this is, , he's surveying what his descendants will one day have

Carey Griffel: And this incidence of Abram calling on the name, it is in response to the promise that God gave him. So, and I think this is probably why a lot of people take , the incident in Genesis four as, Oh, this is just the start of worship because that's what we're kind of seeing here in Genesis 12 is that Abraham's building the altar and calling on the name. He's clearly worshipping God because of this promise that he was given and he's giving God his loyalty and all of that. But we shouldn't stop here when we're just looking at this phrase and what it means. , because once again, just because the same phrase shows up, it doesn't necessarily mean the exact same thing [00:41:00] in every case. So, we've got to build a broader conception and then make our determinations after that.

The next interesting use of this word, called, is just later in the chapter of chapter 12. This is the incidence with Abram and Sarai lying to Pharaoh about Sarai being married to Abram. And because Pharaoh didn't know what was going on, and he took Sarai into his harem, and then God started plaguing Pharaoh and his house.

And Pharaoh was like, wait a second, what's going on here? I don't know why we're having all of this problems. In verse 18 it says, So Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? Why did you say she is my sister so that I took her for my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go.

So, Pharaoh calls Abram over. He's summoning [00:42:00] him. So , there's this idea of Pharaoh's got a problem, and he thinks Abram is the source of the problem. For some reason he thinks that. And so he is calling Abram to him. Like, the text could have just said that, what Pharaoh said to him. It didn't have to bring out this idea of the summoning. So, that's another little piece to put into our basket.

Cindy Beaver: And so , the next one is just in the next chapter where, , Abram journeyed on from the Negev as far as Bethel to the place where his tent had been at the beginning between Bethel and Ai, to the place where he made an altar at the first. And there Abram called on the name of the Lord. So, once again, he's back at the same place. And once again, Doing a little worship service.

Carey Griffel: Okay, and then I want to jump into chapter 16, verse 13. This [00:43:00] is the context of Hagar, who, she had to flee from Sarai, because Sarai got jealous, even though , this was Sarai's plan all along, to have Abram impregnate Hagar.

But then Sarai didn't like that, and so she chased Hagar off. And then Hagar is out there in the wilderness, and the angel of the Lord appears to her, and talks to her. And in verse 13, Hagar says, So she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her. You are a god of seeing, for she said, Truly here I have seen him who looks after me. And that's why the well that is there is named what it is. So we have Hagar, and she is calling on the name of the Lord. And once again, this is also in response to a promise. So that's an interesting connection with the first time we see Abram call upon the name of the Lord. It is also in response to a promise. And in the story of [00:44:00] Pharaoh, the promise happened kind of after pharaoh called Abram to him. There was the summoning and then Pharaoh promised him things and sent him away.

Cindy Beaver: If we continue on in, Genesis, then we get to, , Genesis 17, when Abram was 90 years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, I am God almighty. Walk before me and be blameless that I may make my covenant between me and you.

It's like, okay, now we're talking about, , God proactively appearing, but also wanting to covenant with Abram.

Carey Griffel: . And it's in this context where Abram is renamed. And that word is also the same word that we're talking about here, is the naming of Abraham is the same thing going on.

Cindy Beaver: Correct. Even above Hagar, it's that she is calling him the [00:45:00] God who hears. She named God. , I find that interesting.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. Yeah. That is very interesting. , and of course, later in the chapter, Sarai is also renamed Sarah. So it's the same kind of concept that we're tracking through.

Cindy Beaver: Yep. And as we recall, even from earlier episodes with Genesis, the naming, , is a way of assigning function. , it's also assigning power or control over that thing. , just like, , Adam naming all of the animals. , , it is, , part of that Mesopotamian culture. Even like, , you look at , later in the Bible , , when the, , Jews are, , being deported and going into exile in Babylon, , , , the king of Babylon assigns a different name to the king.

And again, it's to just show that I have power over you. So here again, , It's, , by assigning a different name to Abraham, and to Sarah, [00:46:00] it's a part of the covenant. It's part of the relationship building, but it's also God establishing, you know, he is the one assigning the name. He is the superior to whom they need to defer.

Carey Griffel: I also think it connects very directly into the identity of the thing or the person. So, , when something is named, then suddenly there's an identity there that is,, either it's ownership , , or it means something very particular. And so when we have this kind of idea that we're renamed, or Abraham and Sarai and we have all of this renaming, you're supposed to be taking on a new way of being and a new kind of personhood to yourself, I think is the idea there.

Yes. ,

skipping right ahead into the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, we have , the angels who go into the city , and they meet Lot, and Lot kind of takes them [00:47:00] under their wing and tries to kind of hurry them away from everyone. And in verse five, the people of the city, they called to Lot, where are the men who came to you tonight bring them out to us that we may know them?

And Lot went out and... Protected , the men, the angels, from these people, but they were calling to them because they wanted something from them. , it's a type of a summons. And in this case, it's... a very negative summons.

Cindy Beaver: They definitely wanted to exert power over them.

Right?

I think it's interesting. , when it says, , in, , chapter 19, verse 13, we are about to destroy this place because the outcry against it and against its people has become great before the Lord, the outcry. Again, that's a calling. There are people that are calling out in oppression.[00:48:00]

Carey Griffel: And again, that's a really good example of how it's the idea that we should be looking at. And, that really shows the appropriateness of calling out to God for the deliverance, and it's a kind of prayer and desire for God to connect with the people.

Cindy Beaver: Exactly. And that it's okay to, call out in times of trouble in times of oppression , and God does listen.

He does pay attention. He watches out for that. Now, we don't always get the answer that we want, and we don't always know why, but. , we need to have faith that even when the answer is no, not at this time, it could just be it's not at this time, , and that there's a reason for it and that, , God is not malicious.

there is a reason it's just beyond our comprehension at that point.

Carey Griffel: So I mentioned the incident with Pharaoh. [00:49:00] And there's that second incident with Abimelech in chapter 20 of Genesis, where the same thing happens. And before, with Pharaoh, Abram was still Abram, Sarai was still Sarai. With Abimelech, it's now Abraham and Sarah.

But they're still doing the same trick of, Let's just not tell anyone we're married because , we don't want anyone to kill me because of you. Says Abraham to Sarah, apparently.

Cindy Beaver: Yeah, and then Isaac does it later with poor Abimelech again. He's like the sucker.

Carey Griffel: And , so in, Genesis 20, we have Abimelech, who calls both his servants to him, as well as Abraham. It's kind of the same story , with the Pharaoh, but there's a few little twists there that are really interesting to look at.

Cindy Beaver: I think it's interesting in, verse 17, , then Abraham prayed to God and [00:50:00] God healed Abimelech. I mean, so there it's very clear.

I mean, this may be the first time where it's actually somebody is said to be praying to God.

Carey Griffel: That might be. I meant to write that down, and then I forgot. But it's often the case when we see something showing up in the first time in scripture, it's like, oh, suddenly we have that word. And, and a lot of times we're reading along, and we've assumed that it was there before, and that we've read it before.

Well, surely lots of prayer has happened before here. No, it hasn't. At least not by that word.

Cindy Beaver: Exactly. Other actions that are similar, but this is the first time. And again, maybe it's just our English translation. I mean, we'd have to check the Hebrew and see if it's actually something else, but I find it interesting that this is a unique English word that's starting to appear.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, and I'm, [00:51:00] fairly certain that the word prayer doesn't show up until at least around here. So, which is surprising to us Christian readers.

Cindy Beaver: Well, or, , in , Paradise Lost, you see, , Adam and Eve praying in their bower, even before the fall. So, um,

Carey Griffel: right. Yeah, that's right.

In Genesis 21, 12, we have God once again talking to Abraham and he says, be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman, whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.

And this word named is the word we're tracking.

That's a good one.

So, and you'll notice that as we talk about this, some of these words are, they're related to different objects or different, , audiences, I guess. You know, [00:52:00] sometimes people are calling on God, sometimes they're calling on each other. Sometimes God is calling to people in different ways and saying things specifically to people.

Cindy Beaver: Just like in verse 17 of, , chapter 21. , when Hagar is, , out in the wilderness and she doesn't want to see her son die. , God heard the voice of the boy and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, What troubles you, Hagar, fear not. For God has heard the voice of the boy where he is.

Carey Griffel: Mm hmm. . I think just by what we've gone through here, it's fairly obvious to me, at least, that calling upon a name isn't just, well, here's just plain old worship. There's something else that it means. Like, there's other meaning that this has attached to it.

And so I think that that's [00:53:00] part of what we're doing here is expanding the meaning and , trying to get the broader concept because it's like, well, there's worship and then there's specific types of worship and there's reasons that we worship, and there's so much that goes into that.

Cindy Beaver: And I think too, , the whole knowing somebody's name, , they used that even in magical things, you know, for curses and things like that.

So, , the name had power, , , and control. And so sometimes people didn't want to give their real name because they didn't want to be cursed. They didn't want to have, , so my secret name, you know, you hear about those things. , so definitely that also goes into play in this cultural motif of calling on the name because the name has power, it has significance.

And either you're exerting control over that name [00:54:00] or you're asking for that name to use its power on your behalf.

Carey Griffel: Yeah, , and God's designation of things can also communicate that kind of information to the people as well.

Cindy Beaver: Right, , or it can imbue it with a power, so to speak. , but yeah, , that's, again, something totally foreign to, what we're used to.

, but I, it is something culturally to be aware of and, you can, by pointing it out, see several times, here it is. I think then we, , go to the Tower of Babel where They were trying to make a name for themselves. Uh, what's that all about?

Carey Griffel: Right. Yes. Yes. And does that hook into the idea of anti worship as opposed to bad worship?

Like in Genesis 4, I think what we're seeing is good worship and bad worship. Like [00:55:00] Cain was kind of worshiping God, but it wasn't good. It was what I would determine as bad worship. It wasn't anti worship, because he wasn't directing it towards somebody else, he was just doing it in the wrong way, or with the wrong heart, or something like that.

Whereas anti worship, to me, as opposed to bad worship, would be misdirecting the worship. So, you might be doing it in the right kind of a way, but you're not doing it in the right direction towards God who deserves it.

Cindy Beaver: Yep. You're trying to elevate yourself or something other than God.

Carey Griffel: So that's, that's how I would define bad worship versus anti worship.

And I, really think that's a very important distinction as we're moving forward, especially when we get into Our modern concepts, because is [00:56:00] this what we're doing over here? Is this bad worship? Is it anti worship? Is it good worship? Is it maybe a combination or does it depend on how we do it and where our hearts are, you know, all of these kinds of questions that we could be getting into with all of that.

Cindy Beaver: You know, even the term just popped into my head, hero worship. You know, or, , being a super fan of somebody is that worship, , gets pretty darn close when you think of celebrities and, all of the, even marketing and branding and stuff like that, and how you pay more for the person's name, you know, I want a purse that, you know, , that's this brand. And so that means it's going to cost, you know, 300 when I can get the same thing that looks just the same, but it doesn't have those initials on it. And I only paid 25 for it at Target. , you know, there's definitely.[00:57:00] things where I think there is a misapplication of what we could call worship or reverence.

Carey Griffel: Yes, it's definitely possible. But , it's also possible that there could be degrees of what we're talking about. And there could be things that they really look like worship, but they're missing some contextual elements somehow. And does that matter? Maybe, maybe not. does taking away certain things mean that it's no longer worship but something that is just worship adjacent, right?

And that's something that we really need to kind of keep in the forefront of our minds too, like, don't simplify all of this and collect it in too big of a bucket. Because when you do that you start losing important distinctions. Now, I'm not saying these things shouldn't go in the same bucket. Maybe they do, but we [00:58:00] should question that first and really examine it and not just jump to the conclusions. It's really easy to do that.

Cindy Beaver: And I think, , you know, some of the writings in the New Testament that we're going to have to factor into some of this because there's cautionary in, I'm thinking of Paul, I'm thinking of, in Revelation where don't partake of emperor worship, , step out away from empire and all of those types of things. You can no longer participate in this, , because that is anti worship. It's, improper worship. It's not even worshiping the right deity. , and then thinking about What is idolatry in our current world?

You know, you get into some of that stuff. And are you putting your love for your Alfa Romeo car above, , something else that is? And so is that not the right thing to be doing? I mean, this gets [00:59:00] into super tangled. I mean, this could be, you know, a whole other set of podcast episodes.

A whole different podcast, so to speak, but, um, you know, it definitely is something that tangentially relates to this whole topic.

Carey Griffel: Yeah. Yeah. And, properly thinking about what worship is can really help us sort all of that out.

Cindy Beaver: Exactly. And I still think there's going to be, , gray zones and fuzzy areas.

We're not going to come up with a perfect answer, but I do think that there are things that. , even just by , talking about it , and then thinking and, hearing what the feedback is from the listeners of, you know, what questions they're having and even, you know, even what questions they've already provided us with, it's going to, this is a dialogue.

Yes. We can get closer to the target and, have some, , conclusions of [01:00:00] this is better than that. But, it's not going to be perfect.

Carey Griffel: Right. Yeah. Oh yeah. We're going to end up with different opinions on both sides of things as to, is this worship? Is this not? Does this really follow the pattern?

Does this not? , and you know what? I'm kind of okay with that. I know it's hard to leave things ambiguous and let people have their different opinions, but that. I'm telling you right now, that's what's going to happen. We're not going to be landing on definitive answers to everything, but , we do want to lay out as much as we can so that people can really form their own opinions as to where your heart is and how you can personally approach worship better. And how you can lead your families and other people to right worship as well. That, that's what's essential to me.

Cindy Beaver: Exactly, and just to be biblically oriented and to understand,[01:01:00] , these motifs better through the biblical lens.

Carey Griffel: Absolutely. Well, I think that we've covered enough ground for one podcast episode today.

, we have so much more to do, but again, we have plenty of weeks ahead of us. Thank you so much for joining me here, Cindy.

Cindy Beaver: Thank you, Carey. As always, I really enjoy our talks.

Carey Griffel: All right. Well, that is it for this first episode on the worship series. I hope it gave you a good taste of where we're headed. And I hope it gave you some ideas of how you can also dig into this topic yourself. And I highly encourage that you do, because it's going to be a series that's going to be stretching for a while.

And to just think about your own practices. Why you do what you do, what's important to you personally about it, what you get out of worship, and why you give worship. Because I think we do [01:02:00] need to think about both aspects of that equation. Like, it is God centered, But we can't just ignore the fact that it's also something that is supposed to be formative for us.

It's supposed to do something for us. At least I think so, and I think most people would agree. So, I would love to hear from you about what you think, how you view it now, if you find anything new in this series, and also keep submitting questions about worship that you'd like to see covered in this series as well.

I am still going to be collecting those. You can either email me, you can message me from my website at GenesisMarksTheSpot.com. You can come find the discussion in my Facebook group and add your question there. Lots of ways you can do that. But before I go, I want to thank you all for listening, and thank you so much to my Patreons and also my PayPal supporters.

It does cost money to produce a podcast, [01:03:00] and I am going to be gathering more resources in particular for this worship series. So, anyone who wants to help me out with that, I greatly appreciate it, and I appreciate those who already are. Thank you for sharing the episode, and thank you for rating my podcast if you have done that where you listen to it.

You can also rate it on my website. I think that's about it for this week. I wish you all a blessed week, and we will see you later.