Inspiration Theories, with Mike Chu - Episode 084

Carey Griffel: Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and today I am with Mike Chu, and we are going to be having a conversation about the topic of inspiration. Welcome, Mike.

[00:00:26] Mike Chu: Hi, Carey. Good to be back.

[00:00:28] Carey Griffel: Mike is the academic director at the Awakening School of Theology, and we are going to be talking about that later in the episode, we've got some things that we want to bring out about what the Awakening School of Theology is doing that is really, really exciting. And I hope you guys are going to be as excited as we are about those things, but we're going to kind of push that conversation to the end of the episode. So look out to what we're going to be talking about at the end there about the Awakening School of Theology. But for now, we're going to be talking about inspiration and the different views of inspiration that we tend to have about what the Bible is and how we got it.

[00:01:09] Mike Chu: This is a very interesting topic. A lot of evangelicals have certain assumptions when they hear the word inspiration. And I think we have to dive down into a little bit of what that actually mean and nuance that. Because I think when we don't have those terms very clear in our mind, that tends to then cause a lot of arguments and heated debates. And it's all because we are not defining our terms properly.

[00:01:35] Carey Griffel: I think the definition of the term is really, really essential, and I think for a lot of Christians, a lot of times we inherit the view of inspiration that we have and we don't really think too deeply about it. We don't know where it comes from. Maybe we don't even know how it is formulated in a formal way. Right? It's like, well, the Bible's inspired. And there's this assumption that when somebody says the Bible's inspired, they're talking about inspiration in the same exact way as you're meaning it. And maybe they don't mean that.

[00:02:09] Mike Chu: One of the more famous verses that people bring up when they're talking about the inspiration of Scripture is Paul's writing to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3. 16. One of the interesting things about that word, that most of the time we take the idea of inspiration from, is that the word is actually a compound word that Paul is coining.

[00:02:30] And it's actually, it's not "inspired" because the word inspired actually would mean breathe in there's a there's a breathing in, Essentially that's happening with this. Versus the way that Paul described it to Timothy about all scriptures Is that they are God breathed. So there's a outpouring. There's a breath that is coming out. And so even just that little nuance itself has to be clarified. A lot of the older translations like the KJV or the ASV, they will use the word inspired, but newer translations like the NIV will use the phrase "God breathed." It's a very important nuance because that does inform something about how God is his role in the very creation of the scriptures that we read.

[00:03:20] So I think that's kind of where we have to at least start off with because I think oftentimes, and I remember this as a young Christian when I became a follower of Jesus, I didn't quite understand where did all the books of the Bible come from? Where did all these words come from? you know, I heard nice kind of flowery language to describe what the Bible was like. The Bible is an acronym for you know, "basic instructions before leaving earth" or some other way of saying it. And like, I get it, like, especially when you're listening to a teacher or a preacher or an evangelist who's trying to just get the gist of why they are drawing from this book.

[00:04:01] Yes, it's not inaccurate to say all these words are from God, but at the same time, I think as we dig and study the scriptures more and as we mature in our faith, we have to understand that the process of inspiration or the process of how the scriptures were created and formed, it's not a very clear cut picture.

[00:04:22] Carey Griffel: And I like how you've brought out this idea of inspiration versus, I've heard it say expiration, right? Like, but we don't like that word. That doesn't really flow off of our tongue and we don't understand what expiration is because we are like, Oh, does that mean like food is expired? No, that's not what we're talking about.

[00:04:40] So there's the idea of taking an air and letting out air, right? And so this is the idea of God letting out. And so the idea of air, even, is very associated with spirit, So spirit, breath, wind, all of those ideas are wrapped up in the same term in the Old Testament in Hebrew. And so, That's kind of maybe what we're paralleling here.

[00:05:04] And maybe, Paul is riffing off of that idea a little bit. And there's a couple of different ways that people have connected that to the Old Testament, From second Timothy three into the Old Testament, What does it mean for scripture to be God breathed and what is that connected to in the Old Testament?

[00:05:22] Mike Chu: And I think probably the most famous example, right? Especially if you're just reading the Bible from one cover to the other, the very first instance We see God breathe out is in Genesis 2 and it was in the creation of humanity and creation of Adam. And so in that moment, he breathed out, , he put his breath into Adam and he became a living being. And that itself, , is a very beautiful depiction of how this essentially mud dirt creation is all of a sudden filled with the very breath of God himself, of Yahweh himself.

[00:05:59] And I think that is something that, later on in the Old Testament, that idea would still then play out later in individuals such as David or Jeremiah. There's this idea that it's God's spirit that is imbuing them with the words or, breathing into them what they then need to say of what they need to be able to communicate to the people.

[00:06:21] And so , if we start from there, then we get an interesting picture of God using a human being as his instrument, but that human being is a living creature as well. And so there is , that interesting collaboration that's happening between God and this human being. At times when we get into these debates or these questions about inspiration or how the scriptures are formed, one of the kind of the elephants in the room that does need to be addressed is how and why would God ever want to work with a human being, right?

[00:06:56] And it actually can betray, really, what our own internal feelings are about humanity. One of the things I remember reading about the Reformation and especially in the reforming of the Protestant theology was that they were really struggling with this concept of, Human beings are so sinful or so dirty, they're so depraved. So why and how could a depraved human being ever be in concert or in the presence of God himself? And you will notice that, that that is either a very overtly expressed thought or it's an implied thought in their theology, that it's almost as though they assume that humanity and God are like the North and South Pole, we immediately repel. And so how can they even come together?

[00:07:43] I'm not sure that is the best picture that we really should have in our mind, because that is not a picture that's depicted, especially in the Old Testament. God is willing to work with a human being very easily, and will call prophets out, will call people like Isaiah out. He isn't averse to us, and I think that really is something that we have to address at times when we are dealing with inspiration. Our own personal view about humanity is probably playing a big factor in how we assume human beings and God can interact with each other.

[00:08:17] Carey Griffel: Oh, yeah, that's huge. And I don't think we really understand the depth of that. the presuppositions that build up the ideas that we have for some things ,we don't realize how connected they are to other things. So if humans are depraved and they are not worthy of anything in relation to God, then they're not really going to play an active role in that inspiration process. Right? I think that's very common in some of the views of inspiration that, well, you know, humans are not perfect. They can't possibly produce or be involved with the idea of producing something that we're going to be using as authoritative for our own use, God is the only true authority, so therefore all scripture must come from God and it can't really involve the human, right?

[00:09:12] There's several ideas of inspiration that kind of have the idea that it's got to bypass humanity in some way, because we're so imperfect. We're going to fail if we are part of this process.

[00:09:24]

[00:09:24] Mike Chu: I'll probably use some more technical terms at this moment. I'm not sure if the audience may be familiar with them or not, but the view that you're mentioning, Carey, one of the primary ways it's described is, the dictation theory. And the idea simply is, the human being is essentially a human sized pen. God is literally speaking every single word of the scriptures, and the human being is essentially, a courtroom cartographer, writing it exactly down.

[00:09:55] One of the early pictures I remember of this, and this was even before I became a Christian, you know, every so often I would watch this Christian cartoon series called the flying house.

[00:10:04] It was like, I think I was like 11 or 12 when I started watching it. I think it was Japanese animation, like a studio that actually did this. So it was pretty cool. But there was a moment I remember, and this was after. Jesus's resurrection, he appears in the upper room and everyone is amazed. And there's that moment where Thomas is falling on his knees of like my Lord and my God.

[00:10:25] And like, everyone was like, Oh my gosh, he is actually alive. And then you have Matthew, they show that Matthew who like rubs his, his chin is like, you know what? We really need to write this down. And so then he walks over to a little side table in the upper room that has like a quill and a pen and parchment paper. And he starts writing it down. It basically it was like the cartoonist's way of expressing, this is how we got the book of Matthew. This is how we got the gospel of Matthew. It was like, I got to write this down now.

[00:11:02] I remember how Dr. Heiser would call it, that this is like the beat reporter kind of model, where the report is just reporting it just as it is, what he's seeing, what he's hearing, he's writing it all exactly down.

[00:11:16] Mike Chu: And the dictation theory really plays on that idea that the human being, yeah, humanity's involved. Human beings are involved with those scriptures, but only as much as that they are important as a pen, or as important as pieces of paper, like you need that it's a it's a necessary tool. You know, and God so graciously, maybe he so graciously use them, but it's into it's inconvenience, he has to use this.

[00:11:44] And so the dictation theory doesn't really have much of a high view about human beings. It places a giant emphasis on, yes, God's role in the creation of scriptures, but it really denigrates or really relegates humanity to essentially a very utilitarian function. And, you know, , there's some nice benefits from that particular theory, right? Because then you don't have to deal with any factoring of the human being in your mind. If humanity is so broken or so depraved that they cannot be in the very presence of God to such a degree that even them writing scriptures would be problematic, then this view absolves that, right? Because then God is just simply using them as human pens.

[00:12:30] Carey Griffel: And just even beyond a philosophical disagreement with this kind of a model, we can see it doesn't really comport with what we actually see in the text as well. Because if it is dictated by the spirit, then why do we have different voices, right? Why do we have different writers sounding in different ways, using different terms, using different types of grammar? You know, you can see the difference in Greek in Paul versus Peter, for instance, you know, why would that be if this is being dictated by the spirit?

[00:13:05] Mike Chu: Yeah, I think it falls apart very easily once you start asking those kinds of questions, those just from observing what you're reading, right? And I think that's, dictation theory allows, and it really plays really well with, a person who likes to proofread texts. because it allows you to just simply pull a verse out and say, this is the Word of God. It has authority because it's from God.

[00:13:30] You don't have to consider at all the context. Who is the audience? Who is the writer? Like, it's just, it's only from God and that's it. And so it plays well with that other kind of usage of the scriptures. The dictation theory advocates and their offshoot cousins, the aesthetic theory folks, and they will just simply say, well, that was just how God decided to do it. , he dictated it this way, or he took over the hands of the writer.

[00:13:58] That's what the ecstatic theory is really all on that. , the biblical writers, they're hearing what they have to write down. And at a certain moments, they just all of a sudden like are just in a trance. And so they're writing it all down as well. And then they opened their eyes after it was all done. They were like, poof, I have the whole entire gospel of John here. I have no idea how this got here.

[00:14:16] And so, so that's one theory. And I hope people can kind of realize I don't subscribe to that set of theories now these days, maybe as a younger Christian, when I didn't know much about the scriptures or, just even the basic history of the scriptures. I would just hear a well meaning pastor and just take him at his word.

[00:14:33] But, it's harder once you start reading the scriptures on your own and you start seeing these interesting variations, these changes of language, these changes of voices, like you said, Car even just changes in genre.

[00:14:46] Carey Griffel: There's also an inherent supposition here that only one human is going to be involved in the production of a book, right? And so as we talk about other theories of inspiration, we'll probably still kind of drag that idea along with us in some of these ideas, I think. If God is going to use humans, he's only going to be using one human because that human is going to be easily controlled by God, I guess? Or easily inspired? And that you know, you can't use a group of humans to produce something because that's more complicated. And how could God's word actually come out in the end if multiple people are involved, right?

[00:15:29] So there's kind of this idea of There's going to be one author per book and okay, so maybe God could use the voice of this author here and that author there because, you know, we like variety maybe. Maybe that's why there's different voices. Like, we don't want to hear the same words through the whole book. We want a little bit of spiciness to some writing. So God could use a little bit of personality and, but there's still going to be kind of this emphasis on one person per book.

[00:16:02] Mike Chu: I think, because it's appealing because it's simple. And a lot of conservative scholars still are on this kind of extreme or on this side of viewing the first five books in the Old Testament called the Torah or the Pentateuch, you have one side, which just believes all five of the first five books of the Old Testament, they're all written by Moses. and then it all, then you just have to dig down into like, well, what is the mental picture that appears in their minds when they say that, that Moses is sitting on a rock somewhere, maybe he has like a, a stone desk and like Matthew and he's like, you know, with a pen and quill and he's writing it all down and he has his reflection.

[00:16:42] Maybe he has a little notebook or a really big notebook and he's like walking with Israelites through the Red Sea. Like, this is amazing. And he's like writing it all down. I don't know. But like the idea being all of what we see in the first five books in the form that we read now in our English Bibles, that was all originally written by Moses and only Moses.

[00:17:04] That's like one end of the extreme. And then you have the other end of the other extreme, which is Moses never existed probably. And he never wrote any of this. And, these are all just a whole entire mishmash of different texts that are created by so many different human beings, but it's not inspired. It's not done by God. They're not connected at all. Like if you did like the boil down how a lot of the scholarship would say at the most extreme, to them, the first five books don't have any consistency, which is kind of ironic when you actually are reading it, then you start seeing like, well, this does still does feel like there's a story that the narrative still does feel connected. I don't, I don't understand how you can see it that way.

[00:17:44] But I remember Mike Dr. Heiser, he said that he holds to a view that is rare nowadays, but was more common decades ago. It was called the supplementarian view. And essentially all it is, is that the first five books, for example, he believed that there was a core of Moses's writings and teachings. And that over time, through degenerations and through editors and through compilation, you had other editors and other folks compiling and bringing all these materials into a cohesive narrative to record down the teachings of Moses and the documentation of how the nation of Israel come to be. And that we see that in its final form in our Bibles.

[00:18:31] And we get glimpses that, how could Moses could have written this? Such as near the end of Deuteronomy, where it mentions that Moses died, right? It was always, it always a very interesting thing, right? The, the hardcore dictation theory person will say, no, Moses still wrote that. Well, , that's interesting. But you know, some will start saying, okay, I'll concede someone added that in later. It's like, okay. But how do you know then that that didn't happen anywhere else? And that's a scary question to ask for a person that believes in a static or dictation theory kind of model.

[00:19:09] Carey Griffel: What I've heard most often, I think, is the idea that, okay, yes, Moses didn't write that part. It was Joshua who had to have written that part because that's the next book. So you know, you're, you've got this idea that one has to flow into the other. They can't be separate because if they're separate, then somehow that, you know, that goes against our idea of the whole canon. That's not something I really understand because it's still written over time, right? So, like, you're still doing things to the text. You're editing things in, even if there's just a little bit. And so again, like you said, why couldn't that have happened more?

[00:19:51] And if you know Hebrew, even a little bit, you can see that the different books are written differently. like I said, they have different voices. And while one person can write differently with different voices and different vocabulary, how likely is it that Moses, sitting there in the wilderness or wherever he was, intentionally made the decision to write Deuteronomy in a different way than he wrote Leviticus or he wrote Genesis?

[00:20:23] Why would he do that? What would be the point of that? Why would he change his writer's voice for each different book? You have to have some explanation for that in mind, except I've never heard one, because I don't think most people think about that idea.

[00:20:40] Mike Chu: , and honestly, you know, like when we go into theories such as like the , document hypothesis, which is name of all that is the JEDP theory, right? About the first five books of Moses. It's the whole idea that there are all these different sources. It was not from Moses and whatever else, folks get very uneasy about it because yes, there is a lot of scholarship on it. I mean, the theory was really big in a time when, about essentially how, how do texts come to be in their final form, right?

[00:21:09] And one of the main proponents of that idea expounds that what we have in its final form was not how it was originally created. That it took time for it to develop into what we have now as a masterpiece. that was basically the gist of it. But you know, others had then, they took that and ran with those ideas that then essentially there was no cohesion. There is nothing that is bringing this all together.

[00:21:34] And you know, more of late, that theory has not been very popular because it doesn't really explain in the end, why do we have what we have? , and despite that, yes, there are probably different sources. There's different ideas. There's different like texts that are being drawn on together, but it does seem that these materials have a sense of cohesion to the degree that I remember even reading in one of the, evangelical, but was ascribing to a JEDP kind of theory model, the person even acknowledged that the view is changing where the editor, or they used to call it the redactors, that the redactors of the first five books of Moses, the view is starting to change slowly because of pressure of like, maybe we should say they're editors because they actually are trying to bring this all together. They're trying to tie this into something that makes sense.

[00:22:27] And if that's the case, are they not themselves writers? Right? Like all of a sudden the question of like, who is a writer came up. And now editors or, you know, those who had done the compiling, even among some liberal scholarship is starting to see them as equal to the same level of original writer, whoever that may be.

[00:22:49] Because in the end, what we have in the final form, that person had a major hand in how that final form arrived. and that it actually is a beautiful work of art. It is very cohesive. It does make sense. The narrative is gripping. The choices of what to include and not include, or when to reveal certain details and not to reveal certain details. It's very artistically done. and people who are specializing in literary forms or literature and genre, they notice this immediately of like, this is not mishmash. This is not a hack job. This is actually cohesive.

[00:23:25] And so we have to respect that there is some sort of an authorial intent that's going on, or at least editorial intent that's going on. What I think is valuable about this is that, yes, there's a lot of conversations about what is the human role within inspiration. And Carey, you bringing up the whole idea that there are multiple people besides just the most famed author is, I think, a big step for people to just kind of wrap their minds around, right, that even for the five books of Moses, can we still say they are the five books of Moses if there is a core of Mosaic teaching, Mosaic history, Mosaic thinking, would it still be not Mosaic writing?

[00:24:08] Maybe that's why we see things such as in the text where it will mention, by the way, this place here, this river is has really great gold, over here. And we all know that the cedar trees over here are really great. It's like, why would you mention those details unless you as a writer wanted to make sure that your people could figure out the time and location? And you're using what was popularly known, what everyone took for granted in your time period and you mention, those details. You'll say a different name for a place because, Hey, no one's going to know what the old name was, but they'll know what the new name is. And so like, we have to kind of keep those little factors in mind. You know, we read about towns and cities that technically in the story don't exist yet.

[00:24:55] So anyways, it's just a fascinating conversation when you get into that of like, the writers are trying to do something where they're communicating information and they want to make sure the information is understood, even if that may technically violate when the material was originally written, but they're trying to make sure that the people understand.

[00:25:14] Carey Griffel: And whatever form of model of inspiration we go with, we have to explain the different voices that we see in the text, as well as that cohesion that we see, because the first five books of the Bible are very, very cohesive. They flow into one another, and yet they're very distinctive as well. If we take the view that Moses has the core of that writing, then it makes sense that other writings could fit into that like a puzzle, right? Because they fit directly into that story.

[00:25:48] The book of Genesis fits intimately with the book of Exodus. And that doesn't mean they have to have been written by the same author. Just like Deuteronomy and Joshua don't have to have been written by the same author. They flow directly into one another because They're telling the same story about God working in salvation history with the same kinds of concepts of who God is and who the people of God are and how that all fits together.

[00:26:19] Any way, that's what inspiration is giving us, that kind of knowledge of who God is, what he's doing in history, and who the people are that he's working with, and that whole relationship, So whatever kind of model of inspiration you're going to go with has to explain all of these little pieces that we actually see in the text.

[00:26:41] Mike Chu: Yeah. And, I think, we've made it clear dictation theory is wanting when it comes down to its explanatory power, right? I think the next biggest inspiration model Is what people would typically hear as the verbal plenary theory.

[00:26:57] It's a complicated phrase, but all it really means is it's taking into account the idea that yes, does seem to be a portions in scripture where God is saying through a writer, write this down. So you gotta dictation there. But the plenary is, it covers the idea ,of God is shaping and using the writer. And even the Spirit is sort of speaking maybe in the mind of the writer of what to write down onto the parchment or onto the papyrus or onto the stone or whatever the instrument is, that God is working through and in and with the author.

[00:27:37] And so there's a big step away from the dictation theory where the human being is actually given more of an active role in the creation of the scripture.

[00:27:46] And, Honestly, like if out of the theories that were available up to this point, I would say like, if I had to choose between this or other various theories, like this one's probably the closest second place runner for me, because at least it does account for things such as the human being. It has a higher view on the role of the human being The main weakness though, that I see about it is that , While we are avoiding dictation theory's weak spot, which is everything was dictated by God to the writer, by Incorporating the idea that God is working in the mind or in the soul or you know within the person of the writer... I remember reading this response from Dr.. Michael Bird where he wonders, Isn't verbal plenary theory just another version of dictation theory because God is dictating technically in the person's mind? And maybe not through an audible voice, but through their mind. So is that still not in the end, a dictation theory?

[00:28:49] Because you're still emphasizing a lot of, God is really controlling each letter, each word that's being put down on that parchment. there can't be variation there, there has to be an exactness and a mechanicalness to how the scriptures were created. And I think that's the temptation about the verbal plenary theory, if you get very locked down into it, is that you're basically trying to really hard code how were the Scriptures formed? And you're trying to include all the possible variations, but you can't include everything.

[00:29:24] And I think that's part of the weakness that we see with the verbal plenary theory. It's a good theory. I think if there was no other ones out there, this is probably the one that I would have to subscribe to because like it does describe a good amount of what we see. Just not everything.

[00:29:40] Carey Griffel: It does seem to help describe the different voices. So if the person is kind of acting like a mediator in a sense, like God's words are getting in the mind, but the human is free to Put those words in their unique voice, right? So that kind of can explain the different voices we see. And it explains the cohesion of it, because God is behind every little bit.

[00:30:09] But there are still some problems here, because what do you do when a writer is writing something that isn't from inspired writing? When Paul is using Greek philosophy, or when Jude is quoting from 1st Enoch, or when, in the Old Testament, you see pieces of other ancient Near Eastern literature used in the scriptures. And so what do you do with that?

[00:30:36] Mike Chu: Yeah. And that I think is one of the weaknesses about. The verbal plenary theory and by proxy as well, dictation theory is because they are very dismissive about other extra biblical texts at possibly influencing the mind of the writers. it gets very dicey, you know, if you're really a hard subscriber to this type of theory, because then you have to ask questions such as, well, then, you know, if Jude and Peter are alluding to, for example, first Enoch, Should First Enoch be considered part of the canon, right?

[00:31:09] Like, that's the typical dilemma I sometimes hear in the camps and circles that you and I run through, Carey, like, we hear that kind of question, or like, oh, no, like, what do we do with this weird, crazy book called First Enoch? And what I've seen, even within like scholarship papers at ETS are folks trying to explain oh, no, no, no, no. What Jude and Peter are quoting.... they're not quoting from First Enoch. they're trying to explain that it's like, this cannot be from First Enoch. But it's like, it does seem though, like, when you're reading it, it's like, it's not an exact quote by quote. But at the same time, it's like the ideas, the thoughts, the description that they're talking about, like, who are the rebellious angels?

[00:31:53] Like, all these things pop up. So , you're forced again with the dilemma, what do we do with extra biblical material? The Proverbs, they quote a lot from Egyptian wisdom literature. So does that now mean the wisdom literature from the Egyptians are inspired by God?

[00:32:11] Carey Griffel: Also, what do you do with the Septuagint? There's different traditions of texts that people were using in the first century. You can't get away from that idea. And the Septuagint really, like the ideas don't vary, but the text is very different from what we see in the Masoretic text in some areas. So what do you do with that? You know?

[00:32:34] Mike Chu: Yeah, I mean, some folks may not realize , like for example, the book of Job is shorter in the Septuagint than it is in the Masoretic text. The same thing with 1 and 2 Samuel. The text of the Septuagint is shorter, it has actually huge portions of 1st Samuel 17 missing, it doesn't have certain details. They record different details on , for example, the height of Goliath. Right. The Septuagint will say that Goliath was around, I think six foot something versus the MT, the Masoretic text will say that Goliath was about 10 to 12 feet tall.

[00:33:10] And so you have even that variation of like, what is going on? Why did the Hebrew version of the text all of a sudden have him like taller and bigger versus the Septuagint has him like, you know, like a puny around six feet, something. Which if you think about it, though, is like for an ancient Israelite, six feet is still pretty huge.

[00:33:28] So, so you have those kinds of interesting things of what to do with it. Personally over the years, I, came sort of to my own little model and phrase is that books like first Enoch or the Enuma Elish or other extra biblical materials, they're informative. they help me understand what's going on in the mind of the biblical writer. That doesn't mean they're necessarily authoritative though, right? The biblical writer is going to be thinking on the five books of Moses. They're gonna be thinking on the Hebrew scriptures. They're gonna be thinking on what did Paul say in this letter? And what did John say in his gospel that the biblical writer will be thinking about that, and those are definitely authoritative, but the biblical writer also might be thinking of, you know, I remember Plato saying this. I remember this Socrates, person said this. I remember this other Greek philosopher said this. I'm going to use that line. And that's in formative. It helps me understand like how in the world and where in the world is Paul and the other writers drawing their thoughts from.

[00:34:27] That's what eventually led me to the theory that I do personally subscribe to more. There's no real formal school for it. it's only been described by a couple of scholars and I think all accidentally, it's essentially they all kind of started off from like maybe dictation theory or from verbal plenary theory if they're within the evangelical circles, but then they start hitting all the problems, right?

[00:34:50] Like, what do I do with First Enoch? What do I do with this text? What do I do with what doesn't seem to be a dictation moment here? And so eventually you get into this model of inspiration that has a nice name to it, coined by Dr. Bird, the dynamic theory. in this theory, I don't think it's the be all end all. I think it allows enough breath in it and it accepts the ambiguity of how the texts were created. But one of the things I do enjoy about it is it does not denigrate the human being. That it views the human writer and God as partners in the creation of the scriptures.

[00:35:29] And I think that is a very, beautiful picture of what we see and a good way to describe what we have received as these authoritative texts that we call part of the canon, that there was a collaboration between God working and even shaping the life of each of these writers, the things that they would read, the things that they would write about, the things they would be interacting with, and using that, that's in their minds and directing them towards having to address issues that's going on within their churches, within their communities. And somehow that text having not just good thoughts, but God breathed thoughts as well.

[00:36:11] Carey Griffel: So if you had to define the dynamic theory in a short phrase or paragraph, how would you describe it succinctly?

[00:36:22] Mike Chu: I would have to go back to the fact that we see glimpses of human beings, especially human beings who are not the named writer, for example, like Jeremiah's scribe, Baruch, who played a role , in the whole entire interaction of the inspiration as well, right? you had New Testament writers who use scribes. We know this, that even Paul, at the end of some of his letters, he actually attributes and says, thank you , to these kind of folks who did this.

[00:36:50] I would say, if I had to say it in a short phrase, the strength of the dynamic theory of inspiration is that the human being and God are equal partners in the creation of inspired scripture. the created human being is, viewed at the respectability of a creation of God and not just a creation of God, but as the imager of God. And so there is this intended collaberation that I think has always been the intention of and the heart of what our creator had wanted, to be partnering together in the creation of many beautiful things, such as the scriptures, such as the functioning and , the out workings of this world because we were made to be his co rulers.

[00:37:35] And so I think there is something about what we see as the final result of scriptures, it's a glimpse to me of the potential that happens when humanity and God work together in sync and in Collaboration.

[00:37:50] Carey Griffel: So what you're saying is God is still the ultimate author, but the humans are genuine participants in this process and the production of scripture. and in this case, it doesn't have to be just one person, but it is multiple people who are involved in the process. And all of that is aspects of the inspiration and the way that scripture is produced.

[00:38:20] So to me, like as you're talking about it, as I'm thinking about it, it really reflects what the church is supposed to be, I think. You know, like the church is made up of a body of believers who are the body of Christ. And so if we are the body of Christ and we are to be living reflections of God as God's imagers and becoming the image of Christ as well, then we are all part of that process of things happening on earth that God intends to have happen and it's very complex, right? It's not just me doing something. And so this view of inspiration seems very parallel to what's going on as we are the church.

[00:39:09] Mike Chu: for your audience, if folks want to dig more into it, one of the great scholars I discovered was this guy named Donald Bloesch, B L O E S C H. He wrote a series of books and just systematic theologies about You know, who God is, about the inspiration of Scripture, the role of the Holy Spirit, a lot of stuff. The material that he had just about inspiration, I think, it was the little seed probably that got planted in folks like Dr. Michael Bird.

[00:39:37] Like you said, Carey, like Bloesh's view is, inspiration is something that is done by God and he has a superintendence, that's his word is this, this idea that God is superintending over the entire process. So he has control over the whole thing. So don't worry, he's watching it over. He is the final editor, right? But there is that also that, that breath of freedom to work with the materials that he has, and the materials being the human writers.

[00:40:09] If the writer happens to have grown up most of his life as a farmer, well, let's use that. Let's use his farming imagery. Let's use his farming background. Let's use the regular cycles of harvest and sowing and seeding and planting as part of how he writes Or let's use a guy that has grown up in the temple system. Like. Ezekiel, and let's use his understanding of his experiences and of his life and what he's dealing with as he's sitting in Babylon after the second part of the exiling. And so there is a freedom in that of, let's respect a human being for where he or she is when God begins to use them and employ them in the creation of the scriptures.

[00:40:56] Carey Griffel: And it doesn't harm or go against the idea of God's sovereignty and his ultimate control and his ultimate hand over the inspiration of scripture itself.

[00:41:08] Mike Chu: Yeah. like I said at the beginning of this, I really think that deep down, for a lot of us evangelicals, and I think I get it, I get it from, you know, the way that we communicate the gospel oftentimes is, there's a sin issue, or , there's a separation between humanity and God, and that's part of what we see happening with the cross of how that problem is dealt with.

[00:41:30] But I do think, though, that we have to be careful to not disparage humanity to such a point that God almost just has to kind of has a bitter taste in his mouth of like, I have to use these, creatures. Because even in the early days of the church, they had to deal with the reality of what do we do with this Jesus, who is God incarnate. What does that mean? And a lot of that also because they were coming from a culture, as well, that viewed human flesh --or really actually physical creation itself, anything that's physical-- as just being evil inherently or just corrupted inherently and so not good.

[00:42:13] And yet, when they became Christians, then they had to deal with Genesis 1, where God is saying in the midst of creation of the creation process, it is good.

[00:42:23] The early church had to grapple with, okay, so we grew up thinking flesh is bad, but we have to now square with the reality that God incarnated himself inside a human body. and I remember as I was studying this in church history, you know, the early church father, Athanasius, he really just pointed out that, does this not imply then that the human body, That Jesus becoming the God man , does it not imply that the human body itself is intrinsically good. That it's a worthy vessel to contain the infinite presence and power and being of God within him, within that body? So don't disparage that.

[00:43:05] Carey Griffel: so I've actually pulled up a couple of these quotes that I got from you from Bloesh and this is from his Holy Scriptures book. I think I might try to put that into the show notes for people so that they can access where these quotes come from. But he says, quote, Inspiration is the divine election and superintendence of writers and writings to ensure a trustworthy and potent witness to the truth, end quote.

[00:43:32] And another one he says, quote, Divine inspiration entails guidance or superintendence, illumination, and even preservation. God preserves the actual testimony of his herald as the medium of his continual self disclosure in the community founded on the Incarnation. End quote.

[00:43:54] And I think that really applies to what I was saying about how this kind of parallels what we see in the church. Like the Bible is founded on a community, and so it makes sense that a community is what participated in the production of the Bible.

[00:44:13] Mike Chu: And I think that's one of the things that sometimes also like why do we think the Bible or the scriptures are important, right? and oftentimes if you are coming towards the scriptures with a proofreading mentality, of, well, I need to find a verse that supports my action or my ideology or my preference that grinds against the whole point of why the scriptures were created. It was for the benefit of not just you, it was for the benefit of the entire God fearing community. It's meant for us, not just for me.

[00:44:47] And I think that itself is also, again, it's a weakness of our modern day where we often think in a very hyper individualistic manner that I'm the only person or really the only thing that matters in this world. And I think for any person that's grown up in the church and who has had a love for ministry and serving those who need to hear the gospel and those who need to receive healing, we know inherently that is wrong.

[00:45:19] And so like, I think we have to have a sort of practice where we realize the scriptures, even in their creation, was ultimately for the benefit of us, the community. the scriptures that have been preserved, they are not going to give us all the information that we want, but they will give us the information that we need.

[00:45:40] I think John, the writer of the Gospel of John, puts it very beautifully towards the end of his Gospel, where he just, you know, he almost like waxes poetically of, I suppose, if we were to try to write down everything that Jesus had done, that even the whole world would not be able to contain all the books that would be written. And that implies like, so what John provided in his gospel, wasn't to just like satisfy our curiosity of like, Oh, did Jesus, what kind of fish did he really like? Did he like salmon? Or did he like carp? Like, that was not the point. The point was he could eat fish. The point was he was physical. He could cook fish. He could make a charcoal fire. but also he could disappear at will. He can appear in different places at will. And yet he can also be physical at the same time after his resurrection. John's point was simply, I need to give you the information you need. Not necessarily everything you want.

[00:46:36] Carey Griffel: Yeah, I'm going to read one more quote from Bloesch, because I think this one's a really good one. He says, quote, The truth of the Bible is indeed infallible in that the Bible does not deceive concerning what it purports to show us and teach us. It has no independent or autonomous human content, but one that depends totally on divine meaning. But we have the divine only in and through the human. End quote..

[00:47:08] And I think this view, it's very helpful because as you said, it's more explanatory and it still holds a high view of God. But it explains how we have the different voices, it explains how the text can be shaped in a certain way by the author to put forth a certain point, right? So, you know, he can write about the story of Joseph in a certain way, so that particular points are being brought back. And it doesn't mean that he invented those details. It doesn't mean that this story isn't real or historical or anything else. It means that the author is designing the writing in a way that it's bringing out particular points.

[00:47:52] And this also explains why we can have what we might call bad science in the Bible, right? They didn't understand certain things in the physical world like we do. It explains the editing and different types of preservation methods and the different ways that we can even have sources for some of the writing. And it doesn't mean that those ultimate sources are inspired. It means that the actual inspired process, the inspired writers were using sources. That's two different kinds of ideas. And that can be kind of hard to wrap our minds around.

[00:48:30] But one thing I want to ask , is something that I think people who would be listening to this, and this might be a new idea to them, they might be wondering about the idea of the original autograph. Like, is there still an idea of an original autograph of the text? Like, how do we get to that?

[00:48:50] Mike Chu: so for folks who may not even be familiar with the phrase, like, what is the autograph? That's typically what's used to describe the final product. That, you know, if we're looking at, say, one of Paul's letters, that what we receive in First Corinthians or Second Corinthians, what it originally looked like is the final autograph.

[00:49:09] And then eventually that autograph, is copied and disseminated out to all the various churches and all the various audiences that it was meant to be read from. And then others who were not the original recipients, but then they see this letter and it's like, Oh, this is really good. I want to copy this too. And then they start copying and it gets disseminated out to more and more churches.

[00:49:30] Like the sad reality though, is the most likelihood is that the original autographs, the original books or the original letters. They're gone, they're lost to time. I mean, just from the simple fact that parchment and anything that's organic will just turn to dust over the centuries. And we're now at about two millennia from even just from the New Testament. And we're then not even talking about the Old Testament, right? So you, got to deal with that. So then how do we have the confidence that what we're reading in our copies now are as close to the originals that we can?

[00:50:03] And that's part of the work of like biblical textual criticism and archeology and all those other disciplinaries where they're focusing on trying to re discover and ensure and to see how far can we go back and what is the confidence level that we can have about the words are the same as they were originally written when they were first received.

[00:50:26] And I think, part of that process, it takes a lot more time. It takes a lot more copies and a lot more comparison and by that comparison, when you see that the majority of that, and that's been pretty much attested to, from scholars like Dan Wallace and, Bill Mounce, that what we have in the scriptures that we hold in our English translations, pretty much 99 percent of that is accurate. The variations often come down to punctuation, maybe a different word choice that's describing the same idea, maybe a different grammatical version of the word that's being used. There is this very high match up with all the copies that we can find in the New Testament and then even with the Old Testament when we discover things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and then comparing it to the earliest copy that was that still is in survival and realizing the differences are minor again. It actually came back down to, for the reasons of the community. The community needed to have some safeguards and guarantees.

[00:51:30] Carey Griffel: I think that a lot of times we miss the idea that it really has to have been a community decision to preserve the text, to decide what to preserve, to decide that this is what is it. And, you know, so part of the process of the inspiration in this way, after the compiling, after the editing, after all of that, we have to get to a point where we do get to something that we would call the original autograph. Even if that wasn't by the original pen of Jeremiah or whoever, there was some sort of compilation and putting together of things that ended in something that Okay, here we go. This is what we're transmitting. And that decision was made not just by one dictator, but within the community. And what does the community need? What speaks to the community? What is important to the community? How do we understand God in relation to the community?

[00:52:34] And That was how they chose things. That was why. And I think also the fact that we see Jesus and the apostles and people using the Greek translation, or something that looks like the Greek translation, shows that they were kind of comfortable with some level of ambiguity. Not ambiguity in the sense of, well, it doesn't really matter, but ambiguity in the sense that we have a community that has preserved this right here. And maybe there's another group over there that preserved this variation, but functionally, they're the same thing. And that was seen and decided upon, again, in community.

[00:53:17] Mike Chu: That itself even touches, when you mentioned about the usage of Greek. I know for some folks, they get very uncomfortable with even the fact that God actually decided to use language. There's like a mirror version of that as well, meaning like, so that means Greek is the divine language, is the language of God himself, or Hebrew is the language of God himself, or for some folks Shakespearean English is the language of God himself.

[00:53:42] And I think we have to realize right from when you see and you're studying and seeing these interesting quirks , and kind of ambiguities or, you know, interesting details in the text that God is accommodating, he's working with what is available, the materials, the formation, the culture, the language, even, of the people that he is employing.

[00:54:06] and even just from a simple understanding that the scriptures themselves are written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, that these are languages that were not esoteric, they were not strange, they were actually just a regular "Joe-shmoe" language that would be used in their times and in their communities. Again, the whole point is to communicate. Is to make sure that the idea that I'm trying to transmit is comprehensible. And it does no one any good if I'm going to use a language that no one can learn, no one speaks, no one can write.

[00:54:42] Carey Griffel: The fact that God can use fallible human language, that language isn't perfect, it doesn't communicate perfectly, we have to make choices in the way that we communicate, you know, shows really that God is comfortable with using human weakness to get his words across. Like, I often think that if the Dictation or the trance model of inspiration was really the way God worked, Well, why doesn't he just do that with every human being and boom, we all know everything. There must be some reason God doesn't do that. And so what we have is what we have and we need to explain things in The fact that we see it in this way historically and actually in the text.

[00:55:26] So, yeah, great stuff. Thank you, Mike. Can we kind of switch gears and talk about the Awakening School of Theology and what is going on there before we end here? Because I want everyone to know what the direction of the school is and kind of your model that you're doing because it's really, really exciting.

[00:55:48] Mike Chu: So we had announced a little while ago where before, when the school got founded, it had to go through essentially like a sales purchase model, right? For the startup costs and just starting a school is very expensive. And so one of the things that had always been on the heart of Dr. Heiser was that he wanted to be able to provide this kind of information, these courses, this education available to everyone, to make it free to everyone.

[00:56:15] And so that has been something that's been on our hearts for a long while. And after a lot of time for prayer within the board at Awakening, by the way, I'm not on the board. I'm just simply an employee. I'm an academic director, but this is also something that I was brought into and just discussion and just letting me know about possibly this direction that we would head into.

[00:56:35] And The board had decided and is taking a risk, that the school was moving away from a sales model where you go to the website, you purchase a course from awakening and you have access to that course for a whole year. That model is going to be faded out by this coming fall. And we're moving into essentially making all those courses available to everyone for free.

[00:57:01] There will be no cost for you to access, courses from Dr. Heiser, courses from Dr. Justin Bass, courses from Ronn Johnson, and so on and so forth, all these other scholars that have been helping us out at the Awakening School of Theology. However, the thing though is, as we move into this new model, we are now really then going to be dependent upon donors and those who partner with us on a monthly basis, to actually ensure that the school can continue functioning, and not just functioning, but also have the ability and the financial resources to create free materials for the Bible reading community, to create the episodes for the Ask a Scholar podcast that I and my president Carla have been working on with other scholars, and to continue creating new courses for the school.

[00:57:52] And so that's the model that we're moving into, of asking people, would you be willing to partner with us 40 a month, to be able to provide this content and this material for everyone that wants to learn about the context, the background, and just the theology of the scriptures and of the divine council worldview and of the ancient Near East context, that all this is provided for free.

[00:58:21] We ask, if you can, would you be willing to provide 40 a month and join with us and partner with the school in order to make this available to everyone who wants this material?

[00:58:32] So, yeah, it's a, it's a big transition. We are a few months away from it. And so hopefully if we do hit the number of donors that we will need on a regular monthly basis, and that is about 700 people. That number was calculated from essentially 20 percent off an entire student body. And that includes folks that were students in the past who took courses from the school or current students who are taking courses right now. So out of 20 percent of that student population, we are asking for 700 people, if they can, to provide a 40 a month, and it doesn't have to be 40. If it's that's too high, it can be lower. We're just saying that's the target amount that we ultimately were able to calculate out of what we, on bare minimum, we need in order for the organization to continue and to continue doing this work and not just simply be in a maintenance mode.

[00:59:29] Carey Griffel: That is a massive change and a massive ask. Because, okay, so to be honest, this is the kind of thing, you know, the Bible project, for instance, they go on a donor model and they are able to produce a lot of stuff, but they also, they're very transparent with their money. You can actually access what they put out for how they use their funds.

[00:59:54] And they have a massive, massive budget for marketing and for getting the word out. You guys don't have that. You guys are very, very bare bones. And so this is a very hard task for you. I mean, I think it's within the realm of, absolutely doing, but getting the word out and getting people on board to be the donors, to help fund this... It's a bit of a climb, and a leap of faith, really. So, yeah, this is amazing, and I really, really hope that this is going to be working, but a lot of people need to be involved in getting the word out so that people can know about what's going on and have access to these amazing resources.

[01:00:41] Mike Chu: Yeah. And, you know, some folks have asked me, like, what would happen if we did not hit the 700? And you know, the cleanest and, and really just the easiest answer is, I have to pull the Band Aid off, is that, that just simply means the organization will possibly not exist afterwards. It is just what it is because if we do not receive the necessary funding in order to continue, then we cannot continue.

[01:01:06] And, you know, hopefully we don't have to end up going that way, but this is the method , and really the way that we were led towards, let's take this risk and let's do that because we understand paying a few hundred dollars for one course is a big

[01:01:23] And that was always kind of one of the main criticisms at times that we've heard from folks who that were familiar with Dr. Heiser's material in that, well, Dr. Heiser provided this material for free. It's like, yes, he did. We understand that. He also did that while he was at Logos Bible Software and he had a full time job.

[01:01:40] And so there was, there was that little factor as well, we understood, and even Dr. Heiser, as the school got started, yes, it had to go with a sales model right now. It could not be completely donation based because there was no content yet. There was no course yet. There was nothing to show to say, Hey, this is what will be provided, if you know, you provide the financial funding to help us with this project.

[01:02:06] And so that's one of the things , that is the challenge. Bible project, for folks who may not know, they started over a decade ago, I think now, and they were originally crowdfunded and they started out very small and very slowly. And so the reason why they are at where they are at, is because they had a long time and they were very purposeful in what they did with that growth.

[01:02:30] Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury. And so that is part of the reasoning why, you know, we need to make sure folks understand of where the school is headed, of what the change that's happening in the fall and really what is at stake.

[01:02:44] And we hope that asking 700 people for 40 a month is not that high of an ask, but at the same time, we are understanding that if it's not in the will of God of this happening in that way, then we'll see what else, what our opportunities will be opened up from all this, but it is a, it is a leap of faith that we're taking. we're just trying to follow that vision of what Mike had always wanted to provide, which is biblical scholarship, available to everyone that we can. And this is one of the best ways that we have figured out how, one, to do that, but also two, to enable the organization to still function and to continue creating content in the years ahead.

[01:03:26] Carey Griffel: Right. So this is not just to access the current content. So you would access current content and you guys would be able to continue inviting new scholars and new topics and new information. So you would be continually getting, I think you said at this rate, it would be like four courses a year. So you've got a backlog of courses that you could access and also Looking forward to more courses being added. So it's not just what is there, but what can also be coming down the pipeline.

[01:04:04] Mike Chu: Exactly. The number of 700 donors to 40 a month, like that essentially is built into it is the creation of four courses, a course per quarter for every year. And so that's, the hope that we will be able to do that, to be able to provide continual more research and scholarship from reputable scholars that Dr. Heiser had suggested.

[01:04:24] You know, if we do receive more, then we'll be able to create more courses as well. Like, I'm personally, I'm a little bummed that we're down to four because I had a lot of ideas and a lot of scholars I had wanted to just like, you know, be able to bring into the school and expose and, help people learn about like this good research and this good scholarship. And so like it is what it is, we have to do only four courses. I wanted to do more but It is what it is. And if we do receive above and beyond what we're asking for, glory to God for that, I hope he's so happy ,cause that means we will possibly be able to make more courses. But this is the bare minimum. It isn't like, Oh, if you don't hit the 700, , then you guys will have to do less or you guys, you guys will be fine, right? It's like, no, we need that 700 at 40 dollars a month. That, that is all it really comes down to. We're not trying to sugar paint it. It is what it is right now.

[01:05:20] Carey Griffel: Can you say just a little tiny bit about what people get for the courses? Do they get materials, they get videos, what all is involved in the courses?

[01:05:31] Mike Chu: So the courses are , , they're all video recorded modules. There are typically between eight to 12, even sometimes some of the courses are up to 15 modules. There are about 30 to 45 minutes each. And they are focused on, you know, let's say, for example Dr. Heiser's Unseen Realm course, his Unseen Realm 101. It was 15 modules. Those courses were about 45 to 50 minutes long. And it is, essentially you're listening to a doctorate level scholar, like Dr. Heiser, teach on a particular topic. And so in his unseen realm course, he was going through a lot of the divine council worldview materials, a lot of ancient near Eastern context materials of the old Testament and new Testament.

[01:06:14] And within the courses, there would be readings, textbooks that would be part of the course , to read, you know, to go ahead and like, get that book. This is a good resource for you to use for this particular subject. There'll be open discussions for people to discuss and talk about the content that they're learning from, and also quizzes to actually make sure like, Hey, are you understanding some of these concepts and ideas and materials that are brought up in the course itself?

[01:06:44] And so we've had other instructors after Dr. Heiser, such as Dr. Justin Bass, who has recently just taught a course on early church history. And that is a 12 module course where he goes into, essentially, from the time of the apostles to around the three fifties, three sixties, around the time when Constantine became emperor of the Roman empire.

[01:07:07] So he covers that time period and he goes into, each module, an particular aspect or history of what the early church experience in the formative years of the church. And in that he has readings, he has discussion questions, there's other materials for you to dig down deeper into that particular topic and subject.

[01:07:29] And so that's what you would find in, typically, many of our courses, is that kind of focus on You know, subject, and then the resources and materials that would help you understand what's going on with that particular topic.

[01:07:41] Carey Griffel: So these are more than just YouTube videos.

[01:07:45] Mike Chu: Yes, they are more than YouTube videos. we do have an app that is now part of the community. So when you actually subscribe to one of these courses, within the app itself, you'll be able to access the videos, but you will also be able to access the reading materials, the discussion questions, the discussion forums that you will be interacting with other students who are taking the course as well with you. And so there's a lot of interaction and there's also this material that then you can refer back to.

[01:08:14] I think one of the best advantages besides a YouTube video about this is that there is also a written down transcript of the whole entire module. Right? So each module, if you want to read along as you're watching the module, you can do that. If you want to reference something or look up something again that you remember, but you couldn't remember exactly where it was in the video, you can access the transcript, search for the keywords, and try to find that particular topic. And there will be timestamps as well on where that was spoken. And you can then, like, refresh your memory and go into the context and, why did the professor or why did the instructor say it this way or say this particular material.

[01:08:55] Carey Griffel: That's helpful, I think, because a lot of people aren't going to have taken an awakening course, so they're not going to know what it looks like and what it involves. So yeah, I really highly recommend everyone check it out, take a look at what they're offering, think about it, pray about it, see what's on your heart to Participate in this potentially, because this is such a rich resource and it's going to help so many people get into the Bible, understand it in its original context, understand ideas and things that they're not gonna get in a lot of the other places that people are at.

[01:09:33] And it's very, very packed full of so much content. So I really, really recommend people check it out and. Pray about it. Again, see if you can be involved in this ministry to help other people actually access this content and learn about the Bible, learn about the time of the Bible and learn about God.

[01:09:55] Thank you, Mike, for joining me today for this discussion about inspiration and community And I think that kind of wraps up into what you guys are doing, because the point of the Awakening School isn't just dry knowledge, but really, like, Dr. Heiser's heart was to equip people, and so The reason he chose the courses that he wanted to focus on in particular, especially at first, was very pointedly directed towards that idea of equipping people.

[01:10:26] And this is high level, high level, seminary level content. So, alright, yeah. Is there anything else you wanted to say at the end, Mike?

[01:10:35] Mike Chu: Well, simply, I appreciate just being brought on. I do love talking about , just the formation of the scriptures itself. It's been a good topic for me to talk with my senior pastor and other folks as well. Because I think, you know, people are interested in learning about how the scriptures that we read in our hands, how did it get there? And also just really the respectability that there is to the Scripture and that the writers themselves were important to that process. And I think there's a certain dignification that happens when people realize that.

[01:11:07] And there's just a, an amazingness of just how God could just shape and form a person's life and then partner with that person in the creation of the gospel, of the good news of who Jesus is. And so I think learning about it is fascinating, but it is also very nourishing for me in my faith and in my growth to realize that God is involved.

[01:11:29] He is superintending, as Bloesch likes to say, over our lives. And he is watching over and he is working with us and partnering with us when we want to partner with him. And so that's what I see inspiration or , the creation of the scriptures as a little glimpse of what is the potential when humanity and God actually partner together and do work on the plans and purposes of God,

[01:11:54] Carey Griffel: beautifully put. Thank you again, Mike, for joining me for this conversation. And I hope everybody listening really enjoyed it.

[01:12:02] All right, so I guess we'll wrap up the episode, and I want to say, everybody, thank you for listening, and thank you for sharing the content of this podcast.

[01:12:12] Thank you to those of you who are sharing the news about the Awakening School of Theology, and perhaps participating in that in a financial way to help them build the content and provide it to other people. Thank you again for everybody who supports this podcast, who listens to it, and who shares the episodes, and Participates in the conversation in any sense, whether you're participating in my discussion group on Facebook, or you're contacting me about the different things that you do.

[01:12:44] I really appreciate all of that, and I appreciate those of you who also support me financially. You guys help keep the lights on and help me in many, many ways that I can't even describe. So thank you all for listening, and I wish you all a blessed week, and we will see you later.