Nephilim: Before and Also Afterward, with TJ Steadman - Episode 089

Carey Griffel: Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of Biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and today I have an exciting treat for everyone because I am here to talk with TJ Stedman, the host of Answers to Giant Questions podcast and author of The Book of the Same Name.

[00:00:30] Welcome to the podcast, Tim.

[00:00:32] T.J. Steadman: G'day. I gotta say g'day because it's the Australian thing to do. Thanks for having me on the show, Carey. Wonderful privilege and enjoyable way to spend my Saturday morning.

[00:00:42] Carey Griffel: Ah, I'm glad you could join me today. So, how is the future anyway?

[00:00:47] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, looking good so far. So, uh, yeah, all you conspiracy theorists and end time predictors you can relax today because it looks good tomorrow.

[00:00:58] Ha ha ha.

[00:01:00] Carey Griffel: The world is still in existence.

[00:01:02] T.J. Steadman: Yep.

[00:01:03] Carey Griffel: So I know that a lot of my listeners are familiar with you. But not all of them are going to be, and even if they are, maybe they haven't read your book. So part of my hope for today is to talk about some of the things that your book is going to be really interesting and intersecting with what we talk about here, which is really quite a bit, and kind of wet their whistle for hopefully reading your book or getting into your podcast, either way.

[00:01:30] Both of those are really good companions to each other, I think, really. Because your book is obviously, it's in written form, and because it's in written form, you've kind of set it into stone and people can reference it really easily. And in your podcast, I think what you seem to be doing, especially lately, is really drawing out a lot of what's in your book and presenting it in a more full way and kind of answering questions about it, things like that, which I really appreciate. So they work really well together.

[00:02:03] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, thanks. That was the plan really. I I sat down to write this epic book after over a decade of study to try and get to the bottom of what the Bible was doing with these giants that we read about. And the major struggle that I had with writing the book was trying to pack in enough information about the biblical worldview that you could make sense of it.

[00:02:27] there was a degree to which I had to compromise because you just can't make a million page book and expect people to pick it up. It's a daunting prospect. I mean, the book is really big, It was going to be more than 500 pages and I cut it back. And I did that because eventually you've got to draw a line in the sand and say, well, there's only so much that you can explain in a single book, but I really wanted to do justice to the whole thing of these giants, these Nephilim in scripture.

[00:02:57] And the book kind of ended up being something like a systematic theology of the giants, if you like. I didn't really even realize that was the case until somebody pointed out that that's really what it is. And I was like, yeah, right. It is that. But there was so much more I wanted to talk about because It can still, even given the depth that I went into to try to make that accessible to people, There's still more you could say and more that warranted an explanation. And I started getting a lot of questions from people who had the book and we're just like, yeah Can you tell us a bit more about this and about that?

[00:03:36] And of course I was like, well, you understand why I couldn't put it all in the book. That's what prompted me to start the podcast and it was basically a companion That would enable a more fleshed out view of what was going through the mind of the biblical author and their first audience, to try and help make a bit more sense out of these things for us because what was intuitive to them is not necessarily by any means intuitive to us as modern Western readers.

[00:04:08] Carey Griffel: So, what made you write the book to begin with? What was your motivation for that? And when did you start doing that?

[00:04:16] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, okay, so that was a long time ago now. It had to be close to 20 years ago now that I was attending a small non denominational church and the pastor there was a very old man.

[00:04:31] He said to me, look, I know you've been studying, you've got some Bible college under your belt, that sort of thing. I need you to preach occasionally and give me a break because you know, I've got medical issues and things like that. I said, yeah, okay, I will help out. And so, you know, every so often I would present a message to the congregation and on one particular occasion, I wanted to talk about obedience and I thought, well, who's a good example of obedience in the Bible? You know, the typical character study sort of approach. And I thought, Oh, Noah, Noah's a good person because when you read the story of Noah, you're continually reminded that Noah did everything that God asked him to do or commanded, should I say?

[00:05:16] And that's probably better translated as entrusted. But anyway I'm giving this message about Noah and his obedience, which means we're going to talk about the flood story. You can't really talk about the flood story without tackling the big question, which is why would God do that to the whole world and just drown everybody?

[00:05:34] So yeah, there I was like, Oh, I've got to give some kind of rationale, some kind of explanation as to how it is , that it's okay for God to bring a flood and destroy millions of people and save one guy and his family and some animals and somehow the animals were more important than saving some of the other people. These are tough questions. And at the time, yeah, I had a little Bible college, as I say, under my belt, but by no means a master theologian. And the best I had to deal with that was, well those people were really bad and God couldn't save them.

[00:06:14] So You know, God chose the good guy and everybody else had to be killed because they were bad and yeah, God couldn't forgive them or something, you know, and that was really where I landed. And there I am preaching that to a congregation and no sooner had the words left my mouth, I was like, you know what, that's a really terrible explanation and a really bad thing to be preaching to a church.

[00:06:41] The thing is though, the congregation that were there, like evidently it didn't pose any problems to them because nobody pushed back and said to me, Oh, I don't think that's right or anything. That was like, Oh, okay. And I, but I wasn't okay with it. I, you know, people coming up after the message going, Oh, that was great. Yeah, well done. I was like I don't feel good about it. So I started studying more. I was like, well, Something is missing from this flood story that I just don't understand, and I'm going to go back and try and figure out what it is, because there's no way that the God of the New Testament, who sent his son to die on the cross for our salvation, did that to people, you know, at the flood. That just doesn't sound right. And I was like, how does this work? And I'm going back over the flood story again and again, reading it, just trying to think, well, what am I missing?

[00:07:35] And then I see this word Nephilim, or in the King James version, it just comes out and says giants. And I was like, I haven't really thought about that before.

[00:07:45] What is that doing there? How is that even relevant? And what's the deal? Are these like actual giants or what's going on there? And, you know, kicking myself going, how could I just gloss over this this whole time and not realize that or stop to process it? And so often we do that as Bible readers, you know, if something doesn't make sense, we just keep going right over it.

[00:08:06] And, you know, I want to encourage everybody, you've got to stop and ask questions when something like that happens. You might not even realize the first time you read something that you've just gone right over something that didn't make sense. But yeah, you got to do it. You got to come back and check these things out.

[00:08:22] It won't always lead you down a rabbit hole of over a decade of study culminating in a nearly 500 page book. Sometimes it's just a simple answer, but you've got to ask the questions. Right. And so, yeah, that is what happened to me. I was like, well, now I got to figure out what this means. And I was digging and scratching for answers. And it was very hard to find any kind of decent material that actually addressed the issue of what was going on with these Nephilim.

[00:08:50] So that's why when you pick up a Bible, such as the NIV, they don't even attempt to translate it. They just leave it there. You know, not going to touch it. You do what you want with that which is unfortunate, but it does make you, if you're paying attention, stop and ask the question. So I guess that's good in itself. The King James gives you what I believe is a very accurate translation and just says giants. And then when you see that, , and I'm not a King James only guy by any means, but when you see that you're then sort of in disbelief, well, wait a minute, do they mean giants like we mean giants? Like, are we talking like frost giants here? Are we talking like, Tolkien's, stone giants? What is this, Jack and the Beanstalk? What are we dealing with here?

[00:09:35] Because culturally, we don't have a frame of reference other than fairy tales and fantasy stories. So, that makes it difficult for us then to take it seriously. And so yeah, one of the main objectives of the book was figure out what that actually means and convey that to anyone who's curious. And yeah, that did take a long time, as I say over 10 years of study on that topic in pretty much all my waking hours. I mean, you know, I got a day job and that, but outside of that, I was just consumed and trying to figure out what all this meant.

[00:10:05] And then, yeah, by the time I'd been doing it ten years, I was like, I should probably start writing this down. So three years into that I was like I have all these notes. I should probably write a book like let's just bite the bullet and do this thing.

[00:10:18] I've never written a book before so first time outing won't be the last but yeah, it was a lengthy process to get that into a published work. And, you know, I came out of nowhere with no credentials or backing or anything. So I had to self publish and, you know, it is what it is. I don't know if I'll remain independent like that, or if I'll published through some agency in the future. I don't know. talking about future works, I do plan to write another book, but it won't be for a few years. So don't get too excited, but you can follow me on Amazon and you'll find out when that happens.

[00:10:50] Carey Griffel: So in all of this process, when did you find out about the divine council worldview or the Deuteronomy 32 worldview and all of that kind of thing?

[00:11:01] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, that was fortunately for me, not too far into that process. I did have to sort of I, I guess there were a few stepping stones you might say on the way to my awareness of that.

[00:11:15] , Chuck Missler was a big influence initially because he was one of those guys who really just excited your imagination, got you curious and made you want to dig and study more.

[00:11:26] And he seemed to be on the cusp of grasping that worldview. It wasn't quite there, and it was that sort of curiosity coupled with my own just tenacious trying to get to the bottom of this whole thing with the Nephilim that led me to come across Dr. Michael Heiser. Because there were very few people who actually had anything published online that explained that term Nephilim and although it was a highly academic article that I came across, which took considerable unraveling to put into plain terms, that was really the start. I was like, well, this guy seems to get it.

[00:12:08] So I dug a lot more into his other work and others who were doing similar stuff and yeah, that really opened up the Bible in a fresh way for me coming out of this idea that there is only one source of divine agency in the universe. That you know, it's not just man and God and this big empty void of the universe.

[00:12:36] That the world is full of spiritual divine power both working for and against God and for and against mankind. That we're deeply involved in, whether we acknowledge it or not.

[00:12:49] Carey Griffel: So for people who are coming to your work from Dr. Heiser's work, what kind of differences do you think they would see and notice and can maybe pick up from your work that they are not getting from Dr. Heiser's work?

[00:13:05] T.J. Steadman: I think primarily because I've spent more time on the specific subject matter of the Nephilim as opposed to a more broad brush that Dr. Heiser painted with. I mean, he covers so much material. I've been able to get a bit more specific because I just focused on one thing for a decade, you know, like who does that? So there's more detail, I guess available. And unfortunately we no longer have the good doctor with us. So, you know, we've got what we got.

[00:13:36] I can't wait for that new book to come out, by the way, the companion to The Unseen Realm, that's going to be fantastic. But yeah, that's it unfortunately. And. I so would have loved to spend some time with him. You know, unfortunately I live in Australia, obviously. So that never happened. You know, one day in heaven, as they say.

[00:13:55] But you know, getting more particular I've attempted with my work to pay more attention to the Bible as literature, which I know Dr. Heiser was sensitive to, but most of his work is, at an academic level, sort of talking about what things are and understanding biblical distinctions and thoughts and worldview without necessarily going into it as specifically as a literary work.

[00:14:23] Really, I try to read our Old Testament in a way that is consistent with the view that first century authors would have had. I mean, I know Dr. Heiser did that as well. But you don't see in his work, the deep dives into specific terminology and how that comes through in later works and stuff.

[00:14:44] So I guess, yeah, I'm just trying to drill down a bit deeper. And you know, full credit to him. I know that he had an awareness of all this stuff and has brought a lot of it to light. Yeah, I'm just trying to do more of that. And hopefully people don't see that as me trying to ride on his coattails. You know, I never got into this to try and, you know ride his train, so to speak. But, you know, it's a, it's a wonderful work that he did and it's very admirable. And yeah, there should be more of it.

[00:15:15] Carey Griffel: Right. Well, you know, from my perspective, after having consumed as much content from Dr. Heiser as possible and your content as well and comparing them, in my own studies and things I do think that you are so focused on this one topic in this one niche That in your book you bring out a few more options that I've never heard from Dr. Heiser. And whether that's because he wasn't aware of them, didn't think of them, or didn't think anything of them, I don't know, right? It could be any of those options, who knows? But I think that for those who are coming from Dr. Heiser's work into your work, I do think that there's some additional thinking that they can have in addition to what they've already been thinking.

[00:16:02] I don't think there's anything that really is like, you're not knocking heads. You're not challenging what he's saying. You're just adding to the conversation is how I see it, and I think that's really valuable especially because in what Dr. Heiser called Christian Middle Earth, this internet land of people who are really interested in these types of topics, there are a lot of bad ideas.

[00:16:29] A lot of people who are going down paths that lead to some consequences if you take them to those ends. And, you know, the more entertainment kind of side of things than the scholarly and let's study the Bible kind of things. One thing that I've noticed, like in your book, from the very beginning, you are trying to be very gospel focused.

[00:16:54] When somebody hears somebody talking about the Nephilim, they don't think they're going to hear anything about the gospel, really. They think they're going to hear crazy ideas. They think they're going to hear the wild stories. And they don't really expect to hear anything about the gospel, which is why I think some people are pushing back against Dr. Heiser's work. Because just that word Nephilim, it shows up and they have these associations that they think that anybody who's talking about the Nephilim and the giants are going to go down crazy town. And these other ideas that other people really do get into in that Christian middle earth land.

[00:17:34] And part of the genius of Dr. Heiser and the beauty of Dr. Heiser was that he was speaking into that community and that group of people and that interest in a biblical way. Trying to put restrainers and say, look, let's see what the Bible says. Let's see what the Bible can bring to us in regards to these topics.

[00:17:58] And there needs to be a lot of that. And I just want everyone to know that when I've read your work, that's what I see in your work as well. I really see a gospel focus. I really see a concern that what we're studying is going to lead us to God. And if it doesn't, that's a problem. And, you know, all of these concerns of who are we in relation to God and what does God have to do with all of this stuff, right?

[00:18:27] You know, because it's easy for us to go into this conversation and say, well if there's other beings who have agency in the spirit realm, what do they have to do with God? And why can't God just stop them, right? it's a legitimate concern because we do hold God as sovereign and we do hold the gospel as primary and that's important.

[00:18:50] And I think a lot of people who are entering the space in this conversation, I don't know if they're just really enthusiastic or they don't see gospel application in it, or I don't know what it is. But a lot of times I don't see that gospel message and I just want to really say how much I appreciate that I do see it in yours.

[00:19:09] T.J. Steadman: Oh, that's great. Thank you. Yeah, it's something that I do feel strongly about. And for those people who are familiar with Dr. Heiser's work, particularly the YouTube channel, he used to do that Fringe Pop 321, If you enjoyed that, then I think you're going to love my podcast because there's a lot of similarity there.

[00:19:29] I will talk about the weird stuff and tackle it. But I'm going to bring it back to Jesus. And, you know, and we'll have a look at those things carefully and see whether they really stand up, whether that's actually a genuine concern for our lives and our Christian practice, or if we're just sort of getting carried away with folklore.

[00:19:46] So, yeah, I think those things are important. And as I say, that first century worldview is important because that's the worldview that shaped the writing of the gospel and the New Testament is built on that worldview. So it's really important that we grasp it and that we do so in a way that doesn't get us carried away with as you say, fairy tales and folklore and that kind of thing.

[00:20:09] Carey Griffel: So with all of that, as kind of a backer to this conversation, keeping in mind all of this focus that we really want to have, I want to kind of ask you some of these hard questions and kind of direct things that people do wonder about. So I'll give you a chance to kind of formulate that in a way that is going to be I hope healthy and really helpful to people listening.

[00:20:33] So you know, things like what is the seed of the serpent? This is one of those things that it's a really strange question. Like we have the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. And when people talk about those things, sometimes it's hard to tell where everybody's landing on this whole range of perspective on what those things are. So I wanted to give you a chance to kind of directly tackle that.

[00:21:01] T.J. Steadman: Yeah. Okay. So I should say from the outset that if you want more depth on this, I did a couple of podcast episodes, which will tackle that directly. And I think they're the first couple of episodes of season four of the Answers to Giant Questions podcast, if you want to have a look at that. Which is basically a summary of a lot of stuff that I tackled in previous episodes and some more material on it.

[00:21:24] But to answer the question in a couple of minutes, what we have is, it essentially comes down to what you do as a person. If you do what God is asking of us, act in faithfulness to him, and what you do reflects that faithfulness and that relationship that you have with God. Then you are part of what we call today, the sons of God in that sense that we find it in the New Testament.

[00:21:51] The seed of the serpent on the other hand is where you find yourself when you have cast off allegiance to the most high god and you are following greed and idolatry and violence and the kind of things that we see in The enemies of the people of God, the enemies of God himself.

[00:22:12] This is quite often epitomized in the story of Cain and Abel. The seed of the Serpent isn't like a title attributed to Cain. But we see in his life, these things that really fit that description. And the apostle John picks up on that in his gospel and his letters. And yeah, it really comes down to who you're serving. If you're serving yourself, if you're motivated by greed, if you're getting into idolatry because that's what gets you what you want, those kinds of practices are what define a person as the seed of the serpent.

[00:22:46] It's not biological connection. You're not going to trace your family line, way, way, way back and go, well, there it is. Satan is my granddad or something like... it doesn't work like that. I go into a lot of depth on the podcast actually about how we're supposed to understand genealogies and this idea of descent and what it means to be a son of or the seed of somebody because those things are important. And in the biblical mind that really comes down to, who you represent, who you behave like, what you're emulating in your own life. And it's not concerned with who your parents were or where they came from or that kind of thing.

[00:23:25] So that's why we see in the Bible, people become part of the people of God. Like for example Rahab the prostitute becomes part of Israel. she's a pagan. She's a prostitute. She doesn't have the family background or anything that the native born Israelites had. But she comes into that community. She becomes allegiant to Yahweh. She becomes part of Israel. You see that in the church too, and the Gentiles come in and become allegiant to Yahweh. And for those Jews who remained faithful to Yahweh and accepted Christ, they all just blend in together, they're all one people of God.

[00:24:01] And so that's how you find yourself among the reconstituted sons of God. I mean, we'll get into this later, I'm sure, but the idea of the Divine Council being an assembly in which we participate to some extent because of our adoption as sons into the kingdom of God.

[00:24:19] But the seed of the serpent, you know, they're the people who are on the opposite side and they're looking out for themselves. They're antagonistic to God and his kingdom and his people. And that's really all we can say about that. It doesn't come down to biology, genealogy, those kinds of things. If you're interested in that, season four and season five of my podcast, go into that in great detail. And yeah, you will, you'll Probably get a lot of your questions around that answered for anyone who's curious.

[00:24:50] And as I always say, you can send me your questions. If you still haven't got your head around it, I'd love to take your questions on my show, which is why I called it the answers to giant questions podcast. I will field questions about anything you like.

[00:25:03] But yeah, the, the seed of the serpent really does come down to that. So it's, it's not you know, I, I just can't stress it enough. It is not associated with this heretical idea that in the Garden of Eden, Eve had sexual relations with the serpent in the garden. I know we've come across that kind of thing in the past.

[00:25:22] The text doesn't support that when you read it in the Hebrew. You pay careful attention to it. I know you'll come across people who will say that, you know, they can manipulate it a certain way to make it say that. In fact it's my contention that a close reading of the origin of Cain, who's, you know, said to be this initial seed of the serpent, he was actually believed by Eve to be the embodiment of the Messiah.

[00:25:46] That's what she was hoping for. Of course, it didn't work out that way. But, you know, the Bible is full of these stories of, you know, this guy was supposed to be our savior, supposed to be our Messiah, supposed to be our great leader who was gonna fix all the problems. And then he failed. And, you know, we see that cycle again and again and again through the Bible until we get to Christ.

[00:26:04] Cain was that first one. Cause when we look at the Hebrew, She doesn't say, I have gotten a son with the help of the Lord, because "with the help of" isn't actually there in the text. She says, I have gotten a son, Yahweh.

[00:26:19] And lots of people have been really frantically trying to defend the, Christian understanding of, you know, how are we supposed to tackle that because we know Cain wasn't Yahweh and he was a really bad guy and, you know, that really sounds horrible. And, you know, people get really squeamish about it. But I think we need to understand that Eve already had this concept that her seed was going to be at enmity with the seed of the serpent. So her seed was supposed to be the one who was going to set it all right. Her seed was supposed to be the representation of God that Adam was meant to be. And where Adam failed, her hope turned to Cain. She hoped that he was going to represent Yahweh. He did not.

[00:27:07] That does make him the seed of the serpent in the sense that he rebelled against God, became a murderer, became an idolater, became consumed with his greed and unrepentant, but that's why we call him the seed of the serpent. It's not a biological connection.

[00:27:26] So, yeah, those are important things to keep in mind. And as I say, I've done a lot of work trying to flesh that out in other places. So if you wanna get more on that, the podcast is a good place to start.

[00:27:37] Carey Griffel: So as far as, when we're talking about this kind of subject, and we're getting into the nuances here, as I'm hearing you talk, what it's bringing to mind for me is the image of God. So I think this seems to be another way.... Well, not really another direct way of talking about the image of God necessarily, but the image of God that is being corrupted by other people, right?

[00:28:04] So in places like Isaiah you see the people who are making idols and the people who are worshiping idols become like the idols. And so if you're becoming like a pagan idol, you are becoming less like the image of God that you were originally created to be. So we are all starting out as that image, and then we go and do things to try and not represent God in the proper way.

[00:28:32] So I think having a good understanding of what the image of God is can really be helpful in this. I think a lot of us want to have these separations of concepts. Especially with our modern Western minds. We want to have this mean this over here and this other concept over here is just different. It's a separate category when really, I think the ancient mind had things a little bit more like a big clay ball. It was all kind of stuck together and there were different ways of saying similar things in different ways. And that's kind of what this is reminding me of.

[00:29:08] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, the concept of an image of a god is not something we readily grasp in our modern culture. It really came down to, you know, whatever you represent in terms of your behavior and your conduct and what you do and what you say, that's what you're becoming like.

[00:29:28] Now, the intent of God in the Garden of Eden was, well, here is this man, he is going to be my embodiment on the ground. He's going to do the things that I would have him do. He's going to speak on my behalf. He's going to act in his human limited capacity as me. And in that way, I will be embodied through him and he can then act in the world as my representative, as my mouthpiece, as my hands and feet.

[00:30:01] And we need to keep that in mind all the time in terms of how we conduct ourselves as Christians. The same works the other way in that if you are behaving in a way that does not reflect God, then you are becoming more like whatever that is. So if that's one of the gods of the pagans or, you know, the demons in the world, then that's what you become more like. Now, I'm not suggesting that we will become God or Gods, you know as in the way that God is God, right? You know that weird distinction we always have to make when we talk about Elohim and you know There are gods and then there is the God and all that. I know you've explained that in great detail in your podcast.

[00:30:43] I'm not saying that we can be God in the way that God is God. I'm also not saying that, you know, if you don't do the right thing, you'll turn into a demon. You know, it doesn't work like that, but you know, that's our trajectory as humans, you know, choose who you're and choose how you conduct yourself in the world. Because that determines what kind of person you will be.

[00:31:05] Carey Griffel: Right. so the seed of the serpent, does that have anything to do with the Nephilim?

[00:31:13] T.J. Steadman: It does, yeah. There's an interesting degree of overlap there because the Nephilim, in a sense, were actually a kind of biological connection to these dark powers in the world which makes them different to, you know, people just behaving badly.

[00:31:30] And that's the critical point that I needed way back when I was presenting that message to my church at the time, right? The reason that it's okay for God to act as he does in the flood, it's because he's drawing distinction between those people that he has created. and those that have been created by forces opposing him.

[00:31:52] The Nephilim basically as the product of physical interaction and mingling between divine agents in rebellion to God and human beings, sort of find themselves in an uncreated category, if you like. Their way of life and their very existence is in every way opposed to the good order that God set out to establish in the world.

[00:32:12] So that's the major distinction between them and just, you know, people who are bad. So yeah, it's important. We keep that in mind and it can be a bit hard to wrap your head around initially. That's something we, never get taught in church. You know, that weird thing that makes us all feel squeamish when we think about, well, how are people interacting with these spiritual beings?

[00:32:32] You know, and the major objection to that is well, you know, they're spirits. So, you know, people can't be having children with spirits. That doesn't work. We pay careful attention to the Bible and what it actually says about these spiritual entities that form part of God's counsel. Quite often they are in embodied forms.

[00:32:49] You look at the story of Abraham talking to God before the destruction of Sodom. God comes to Abraham accompanied by two other divine beings that we're initially introduced to them as men. I think that's a generic term for like persons rather than, these are human beings. Because we later find out that they've got these amazing supernatural powers. The three of them approach Abraham, they do normal stuff. They eat, they drink, they get their feet washed and all these kinds of things. They're obviously tangible people functioning bodies. Then they go to Sodom. People are trying to take advantage of those functioning bodies, which thankfully is prevented.

[00:33:31] But it's made very clear that these divine beings can be interacted with in every sense that a normal human can. So, I don't think there are any substantial grounds for objecting to the creation of the Nephilim as it states in Genesis 6 on the basis, that they're not embodied or something. So yeah, for me, that's a very clear cut case when you read Genesis 6, it just states it as a matter of fact, and it doesn't have to explain to us how it could be possible that humans could mingle with the divine. It's just kind of accepted.

[00:34:05] Carey Griffel: Well, it doesn't seem like the ancient person had these kinds of hangups that we do because they didn't have the firm distinction between the physical and spiritual like We are physical and spiritual is you know, this like there's two dimensions in two different worlds Whereas for the ancient mind, it's like they were much more together I think. So they weren't asking the same kinds of questions we do.

[00:34:32] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, I think we fail to appreciate just how Heavily influenced our modern worldview is by, you know, platonic thought and that kind of thing. So, I mean, once you go back beyond you know, the Greek civilization, you come back prior to that into the ancient Near East, you find that there was a very different way of understanding the world that didn't necessarily draw these distinctions and that makes stuff a lot simpler, honestly, to just take it on face value.

[00:35:02] Carey Griffel: So we have the Nephilim who come before the Flood and then we have the Nephilim who, there's some sort of connection after the Flood. Can you explain a little bit about that? Are they the same? Are they different? How are they connected? You know, this is one of those frequent questions.

[00:35:21] How do you get the Nephilim after the flood?

[00:35:24] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, it does come up all the time. So the initial thing that we've got to pay attention to is that in that famous passage in Genesis 6, we are told explicitly that there were giants in those days and also afterwards. in the plain sense of just reading that text As it would appear that the author has intended it to be understood, the natural reading if you like, I think the author is trying to communicate to us that in those days means the time before the flood and afterward means the time after the flood.

[00:35:58] Where people have drawn objections to that is they start saying Yes, but we know that only certain people survived the flood and that everything else perished and therefore we can't have Nephilim after them because, we're told only eight persons of the Ark, who survived and all this kind of thing.

[00:36:20] So in other words, we're reading later information in and drawing our conclusions and making our convictions on that. Now, I think if it says that they were there before and after, then we've got to take that seriously. And of course, you turn to Numbers chapter 13, and we have people again talking about the Nephilim.

[00:36:38] You'll also find references, well, one reference in Ezekiel but he's talking about the fact that they're dead. we come across this mention in Numbers. Oh, what do we do with that? It says Nephilim twice. Did they really see giants after the flood? Mind you, this is after we've already had numerous encounters with giants in the biblical story before that point.

[00:37:00] But, you know, it's that specific reoccurrence of that word that makes everybody wonder, well, how did they get there? Again, it's pretty common for people to be dismissive of that. Oh, well, the spies who went into Canaan who saw these, well, you know, they were just terrified and they were unfaithful and they were lying.

[00:37:18] The scripture actually does not say that they were lying. It says that they brought a bad report. Well, I can look out my window and I can see, That there are storm clouds gathering outside and there is thunder brewing and that to me is a bad report. Now I'm not lying when I say that. Bad news is bad news. It's not a lie.

[00:37:37] So there's a difference there which should be pretty clear actually if you conduct a bit of a word study into that. So we can rule out the idea that they were just lying and that they were not really giants after the flood. But we still have to try and figure out, well, How does this work?

[00:37:52] That passage in Numbers 13 is not in its own little bubble. You know, that couple of verses there where the Nephilim are mentioned. That whole passage is concerned with these people who lived in the land who were known as the Anakim. And people have struggled with the Anakim for a long time as well because, and you'll see Dr. Heiser talks a lot about this actually, about the idea that the Anakim were the giant clans were Uh, which I agree with.

[00:38:22] One thing that I haven't seen in much of Dr. Heiss's work, and I mean, he's probably aware of this stuff and just hadn't published it. But the Anakim, that term, we're told it's a Hebrew term, it's actually not.

[00:38:36] It comes from the very, very early Greeks. Okay, so we're talking Sea Peoples and that sort of thing. We can trace that word back through Greek records and manuscripts. The idea that this guy named Anax was a giant. The son of Asterius, who was like a a god or demigod figure, depending who you're reading.

[00:38:59] Asterius comes from Aster, which is like a star, luminous being, you know, so we're sort of tracking with the idea of gods here. So we've got this person who is a son of the gods, and even in the Greek mythology is referred to as a giant. And I think it was Horsanius, uh, writing in, I think, the 2nd, 3rd century A. D. where he describes having gone to an island in which there was a cave and they found the body of this Asterius. And I think He was recorded as being 10 cubits in height. So a cubit being a foot and a half in the common slang or, you know 45 centimeters, if you live in the rest of the world that's a big dude, right? So that's a 15 foot person.

[00:39:45] Now getting back to Anax, as I said, there's a bit of, convoluted etymology. You can go back to the Egyptians and we understand that these very early Greeks, some of them, Migrated out of Egypt initially, right? So they're bringing Egyptian ideas and incorporating them into their own culture.

[00:40:06] The Egyptians if you know anything, or if you've ever seen Egyptian hieroglyphs, you'll be familiar with one that is called the Ankh. And it looks a bit like a Christian cross with a loop on the top and a kind of little flare bottom like he's wearing a bell bottom trousers. And the Ankh contrary to the modern use of that where they talk about, you know, the key of life and they're trying to be all mystical and new age about it, that was initially associated only with a Royal ruling class who were said to have a connection to the divine.

[00:40:39] Okay. So it's a combination of two images. When you look at the ankh symbol. You have the loop at the top, which represents the sun and the sort of cross shaped lower portion. Is either a tree, which is growing up to reach and, contact the divine realm. Or can be seen also as a bird, which is ascending from the earth up into the heavens.

[00:41:06] So the idea we're supposed to be getting from that symbol is there's this connection between heaven and earth, and it's embodied in this person who is, you know a human ruler making connection with the divine realm. All right. So that we can take back even further, go back to the ancient Mesopotamians.

[00:41:24] They had a mythological figure, the Anzu bird. So again, we have this bird who goes up and he steals from the ruler of the people, the tablet of destinies, which was his sort of royal right to govern the land given by the gods. The Anzu bird takes it and goes up to this high mountain and they have to try and get it back.

[00:41:49] So there's this trail as far back as you want to go in human civilization. People are trying to connect with the divine realm, trying to harness that divine power to embody that within themselves and to use that dominion on the earth. So we see that in ancient Mesopotamia, it carries into Egypt, it goes into Greece. And it comes into the promised land through the Anakim. And these are the people who are trying to harness this divine power, trying to embody the gods within themselves.

[00:42:20] They're doing this independently of Yahweh, of course. And they figure that their right to dominate the land and to rule it as they see fit, comes from this connection to the gods that they have. And as I say, they're doing that without Yahweh. So these people have set themselves up as the image bearers of other gods. So a direct contrast to God's own people who are attempting to embody Yahweh in their conduct and in their actions and they're not claiming divine power or wisdom or access to God in themselves.

[00:42:54] They're not putting themselves on the pedestal of divinity. They attribute everything to the Most High God as they should. And on the other side, you've got these people who are saying, well, we are gods and we're embodying this divine power. And that power is exercised in them through the influence of these divine beings.

[00:43:12] Okay. So when the Bible says that they're giants and talks about how tall they are, and you will see this in a Deuteronomy, they were as tall as the Anakim, you know. And in numbers, they made us look like grasshoppers, you know, this kind of thing. We've got to be sensitive to hyperbolic language. I mean, when Amos says that they're as tall as cedar trees and whatnot, I'm not supposed to take that literally, but as I say, they're big people. How does this happen?

[00:43:37] And I think that there is some kind of remnant of that divine power that came from the original Nephilim. That connection is the hard bit, right? Everybody's like, well, okay. Even if we accept that there are these semi divine beings living in the land after the flood, how did that happen? How does that work? What's the connection? Because we're often consumed with this idea of, well, it has to be some sort of biological connection, right?

[00:44:06] I mean, you've got that seed of the serpent idea. You've got the knowledge that only eight persons survived on Noah's Ark. So how does it work? We have somebody on board the Ark stowed away, like there was a giant hiding in the, you know, between the elephants or you know, maybe there was a giant holding on outside the Ark. That's a Jewish tradition that, King Og of Bashan was actually one of the original giants and he was trying to swim and Noah took pity on him and, you know, just said, well, you just hang on outside. I'll bring you some food and, you know, you'll survive.

[00:44:41] Just because there is precedent in Jewish folklore doesn't mean we can hang our hats on it. Everybody likes to throw around theories and ideas and the rabbis were no different. That is also a very late tradition, but there are all kinds of options. Well, maybe one of Noah's family had some genetic connection to the Nephilim. So they've had kids and they've turned into giants. That's a pretty popular one.

[00:45:07] I think we have a big problem with that when we consider the righteousness of Noah. Because, if we are thinking about righteousness the way that the Bible thinks about righteousness, then the righteousness of Noah extends to his family, not by virtue of like, well, he was good, therefore his kids get a pass.

[00:45:26] It's more a case of, he's the head of a household, he brings the family up in the ways of God because that's his responsibility. His righteousness then depends on him bringing his kids up right, making sure that His wife, his son's wives were all on board with the righteousness that God expected.

[00:45:44] So when we consider that, we have to rule out the idea that, you know, there were bad people on board who were trying to subvert the whole thing and sneak giants into the the new world, if you like. Unfortunately people still do have their own natural free agency and we find out after the flood that Ham does a bad thing, but that doesn't make him a giant.

[00:46:02] That's probably the main thing, is like, people saying, Well it had to be Noah's wife, or, or Ham's wife, who were perhaps secretly giants, you know. Noah let him get on board, because he didn't realize. there are some more complex reasons why that doesn't work. I won't bore you with the details, because it gets really finely tuned there, but I did go into it in the book.

[00:46:23] T.J. Steadman: But I think we've got to come back to this idea that if you're trying to connect with divine powers, independently of the most high God, and you want to do things your own way. You're going to find a way. And I think that's the case when we look at Nimrod. Now, Nimrod happens to be the first person who's referred to in the same kind of language that is used to describe the giants back in Genesis six. So he gets called a gibbor and that's not necessarily specifically a term for giants, but it's in the mix.

[00:46:56] And he becomes a giant. Now that's an interesting phrase because he wasn't born one. So again, we're outside of that idea of genealogy and biological connections. He becomes a giant somehow. So how does that work? There's some again, really fine nuances define all these things. But when you dig into what Nimrod does, In order to become a giant, it would appear that he's gotten involved in some kind of ritualized ceremonial magic or something like that. Probably associated with necromancy.

[00:47:31] I mean, I go into this in the book in as much detail as I can, and you still can't really pin it down precisely. I think that's on purpose because I don't think that the biblical author considered it appropriate to spell out, well, this is how you become a giant, right?

[00:47:45] Something about that says, you know, you should probably not have like a full set of instructions on how that works. But that's the impression that we get from a deep reading of the Hebrew there in the story of Nimrod. And that's actually backed up when we get into Ancient Near Eastern literature. And we consider who Nimrod likely was historically. And my take on that is we should be looking at a certain Mesopotamian king who was known as En makar and there are numerous stories about him which follow a very similar trajectory to what we find hinted at in the scriptures. So the idea that he went into a tomb or something of that nature and encountered something that, terrified him and caused the release of monsters upon the land.

[00:48:30] The idea that there was some kind of divination at play that he tried to harness for his own benefit and which turned against him and giants and hideous monsters. So that kind of thing is actually well attested in the Mesopotamian traditions. And I think the Bible kind of suggests that there was something along those lines took place.

[00:48:51] And later through the biblical story, we start to see more connections back to that. Particularly with regard to, as I mentioned before, Og of Bashan. One of these giants who had this special bed and we're told about the bed, that it was really quite large. We were actually given the dimensions of the bed, which is an unusual thing to mention in the Bible.

[00:49:12] People have taken that to mean, well, that must be the size of the guy, right? He needs a big bed because it's a big guy. Not necessarily. I mean, we're told he was a giant, so okay, he's a giant, but the bed is mentioned because it is actually a cultic ritual item used for certain ceremonial practices whereby a person like the king would attempt to have relations with a god in a sexual practice which was conducted annually as part of this Amorite culture, which had spread through Mesopotamia.

[00:49:47] So these are the kinds of things that lead us to ending up with giants in the post flood world. And it's a very different sort of thing. So where previously we had these divine beings mingling directly with human beings and producing giant offspring, we now have a situation where people are invoking the spirits that Survived through the flood because water it just kills your body, right? It doesn't kill your spirit.

[00:50:13] They're invoking these spirits and inviting them to become one with them and that's what we see in the post flood world. And That's what I think is going on with those giants there. So we still have that connection to the original Nephilim and what happens is a bit of a progression where these Divine beings kind of degrade over time through subsequent generations.

[00:50:38] Initially, you had the sons of God who rebelled. Okay, so these divine beings with immeasurable power and all sorts of capabilities. And they cast that aside so that they can experience human embodiment. They want to be able to have human experiences. They want to create offspring. They want to be with women. They want to do things that they can't do as angels. So they've lost a significant amount of this power and glory that they had. They don't get it back. Then you have these Nephilim who were kind of demigods, if you like. So. half divine, half human. They're still immensely powerful, large, you know, they can pretty much do whatever they want.

[00:51:16] I don't know

[00:51:17] Carey Griffel: if you could hear me

[00:51:18] T.J. Steadman: or not. And of course, God

[00:51:20] Carey Griffel: wipes them out with the flood.

[00:51:22] T.J. Steadman: which if you've got an awful lot of time and a lot of patience you can eventually get to the point where you can see how these same spirits become sort of disembodied during the flood and they wind up interacting with people afterwards in this kind of disembodied way which

[00:51:39] Carey Griffel: when you read first

[00:51:40] T.J. Steadman: enoch we'll just say that you know these are the spirits of the nephilim and they're the demons so a book like first enoch just comes out and says it. But that's on the back of lots and lots and lots of study.

[00:51:50] We've got to remember things like First commentaries on scripture, and they're derived from biblical studies. So what you get there is basically the shortcut. They just come out and say it instead of making you do all the legwork.

[00:52:02] When you look at the post flood giants, and we've got all these different terms, so I didn't mention Rephaim. That's the other big term that you see. The Rephaim are these interesting people who are giants in one sense, a people group in another sense. Also uses a term to refer to the dead. It's very confusing because the term has so many layers and nuances and ways of being used. You've got to be sensitive to the literature when we're reading, otherwise we get completely lost.

[00:52:30] But there are a subset of these biblical giants and part of this whole matrix of all these different giants. Specifically, they're the ones that we see sort of, embodying these spirits of the Nephilim. And they bring people this power and this ability to dominate the world.

[00:52:49] But again, they seem to be weaker or more diminished in their ability and their power than the original Nephilim were. of course we have the conquest of Canaan where these people are wiped out by the Israelites under the command of God, they come into the promised land. That's about the time that we start coming across the idea of disembodied powers, the demons, who are able to afflict and torment people and bother them, but they don't have this embodiment as we saw in previous iterations of the Nephilim.

[00:53:21] So as we go on, they sort of diminish in their ability. By the time you get to the New Testament, demons are these spirits that People attempt to harness their powers and attempt to use them to advantage, whether it be to tell fortunes or something like that. But they're really quite powerless in the face of the authority that Jesus brings to the table. Jesus is able to discern who they are and what they're doing, how they operate, and he knows that they don't have the authority to keep afflicting God's people. It's his authority that ultimately banishes them.

[00:53:57] When we get to Revelation chapter nine, we have again, these allusions to these spirits of the Nephilim, which are sort of spoken of in these crazy symbolic terms, makes everyone think about helicopters or something.

[00:54:09] But again, we have like a fourth phase of the Nephilim where we have this final iteration of them in a way where they're trying to attach themselves to human beings again, give them some embodiments, some agency. Again, this is tied in with idolatry and stuff like that. When you read revelation nine, you look at the situation that you've got people being urged to repent from the greed, from their idolatry, from all the stuff that we've been talking about since Genesis four, and you know, The seed of the serpent, right?

[00:54:36] All the stuff that Cain was doing that was bad comes back , people are still doing it, people are still unrepentant, and these demonic figures are afflicting them for the purpose of trying to, like God uses them to try to bring about repentance. The idea is, you know, I tried being nice Offered you, all the wonderful things that Christ offers and the life of the church You haven't accepted. We're gonna have to push. Gonna have to make you uncomfortable. I'm gonna have to bring you to repentance somehow and the demons ultimately God uses them in his capacity as the sovereign God to drive people to repentance if they will at all repent. And unfortunately many don't.

[00:55:18] That's a bit of a lightning fast run through the giants after the flood and Ultimately, they will end up in the lake of fire. we've seen through History, through biblical history, that they've been diminished in their power more and more as we go You And, yeah, ultimately they'll be done away with by the power of the word of God.

[00:55:38] Which is reassuring for us because I'm sure lots of people sort of sat on the fence about the idea of giants after the flood and ultimately pushed back and said, no, we can't have that because it's scary and I don't want to think that, you know, there might be giants living in the world among us now. What would I do if I came across a giant? You know, I don't want to live in that kind of world. So for a lot of people, the pushback against post flood giants comes down to, well, I don't want to think that they could be really acting in the world now. I think they are, but not in that same way, not to that same capacity.

[00:56:11] Carey Griffel: So there's a connection between the Nephilim before the flood and the Nephilim after the flood, but it's Not a same kind of thing that's going on before and after. I think your explanation really helps to Connect with what we see in the New Testament as far as the reference to Genesis 6 and the sons of God and the Nephilim and the Giants and all of that kind of those strange mentions of those in the New Testament. And You make the point that there seems to only be one instance that is like the Genesis 6 instance.

[00:56:46] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, you don't see the same thing happen again. I know it's a popular theory that there was a second incursion of angels, so something happened again afterwards. People will point to Sodom and Gomorrah, that story. But that story doesn't actually have it working out the same way. You've got men trying to have relations with these divine beings which of course that's not going to leave them with pregnant human women having divine offspring in the way that we saw in Genesis 6. Ultimately it doesn't happen anyway in the Sodom and Gomorrah story. They all get destroyed.

[00:57:20] So that doesn't work there. But of course people are pointed that saying, well, you know, something like that, you know, could have just happened again. Actually St. Peter makes it really clear that this happened only one time in very clear language in, in his epistles. So I think we need to take that seriously.

[00:57:35] And also we don't find any reference in the Old Testament to that having actually happened. So it seems initially an argument from silence, which is then shot down by A direct argument against it.

[00:57:46] Carey Griffel: So the interesting thing that I find in your formulation of these ideas is the idea that the beings who are involved with the Genesis 6 situation are not necessarily different from the beings that we see later on in the Old Testament.

[00:58:04] T.J. Steadman: That's an interesting point and one where, if there is anywhere that I differ a little from what we've learned from Dr. Heiser, it's probably on this point. In that we have these Sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6, they come down and co mingle with the human women. We then have the flood event which of course sort of becomes the last time we hear of them.

[00:58:30] But then, afterward, we find that the Tower of Babel event, that story is interpreted later, as we read in Deuteronomy 32, as being the catalyst for the dispersion of the people of the world under the authority of these divine beings.

[00:58:48] And, for most people, they will say, well, These divine beings had to be good guys who later turned bad as we read about in Psalm 82 and elsewhere, but they certainly can't be the same as the sons of God from Genesis 6.

[00:59:06] I would differ with that because I don't think we have a good reason to rule them out as being potentially the same. And when I say that, people's first objection is, well, why would a good God put bad people in charge of the nations? To which I say, well, have a look around in the world in which you live and see who's in charge.

[00:59:28] And do you think they good people, right? Because the scripture makes it pretty clear that there is no authority on earth except that which God has put in place. Right? So if we take that seriously, then we have to understand that divine beings in charge of nations are no different. God puts them there.

[00:59:45] And they don't have to be good for God to do that. Ultimately, God putting them in charge of the nations secures the judgment that is coming for them because They are going to be judged on how they administered the nations and how they were supposed to bring them to a knowledge of Yahweh. the people also will be judged on how they responded to those divine beings.

[01:00:09] I think this is a pretty comprehensive picture of the way that God does things. He's got a purpose for everything, whether it was intended for good or for evil. As I mentioned earlier even the demons that were completely unintended find purpose in God's will.

[01:00:28] And that doesn't make them good, but God who is good will use anything and everything to bring about a good end. And that's what I see happening in the divine council. I don't think that divine council is comprised purely of people who are on God's side, right? I mean, you read Job, the sons of God present themselves before God, Satan comes, too, he's probably not trying to achieve good things. You know, some question about that and some flexibility there and how we interpret that. But I think it's safe to say that God is going to get participation from his entire divine counsel on how things work out in the world, whether for good or for evil, from our perspective. And we do have a limited perspective on this, which is why we really need to be, slow to judge.

[01:01:16] But I think it just makes sense to see that those fallen powers that were at work in the world before the flood are still living, still active. You know, when the scripture talks about them being imprisoned in chains of darkness and things like that, I mean, we've got to think seriously about this. Like, what kind of chains can restrain a divine being like that? That's not physical chains. They're not hiding in a hole in the ground or in a jail somewhere. these are vast cosmic intelligences. I think we're supposed to understand that language as a kind of restraint, whereby they still have some agency, but they can't necessarily do whatever they want on their own terms like they did initially.

[01:01:55] And I think the reason that the New Testament uses this idea of chains, Not only because it draws back on some Old Testament imagery, But it also provides a really fitting image when we consider the nature of imprisonment in The first century. So when we look at the Apostle Paul, he was often Imprisoned and in chains and he was chained to a Roman guard. Now he could still go about, go into the marketplace, you know, be in a house, but he's there chained to someone who's going to keep him in check, right? Should he choose to do something he's not allowed to do.

[01:02:29] When we think about imprisonment or being in chains in that sense, then we bring that back to these divine beings who are somehow restrained. And I think it makes sense that we see their restraint in terms of, God keeping the limitation on what they can do. It doesn't mean that they're banished to some other realm where they cannot influence the world that we know and experience. I think they're very much involved in it. But there's limitations on their capacity.

[01:02:56] Carey Griffel: Well, I used to be very very solidly in Dr. Heiser's camp on this, of, they had to have been good already because why would God Employ, already rebellious beings, right? But as I have been doing a lot of podcast episodes on judgment and exile and Seeing that theme in scripture and seeing how God's wrath really plays out in the Old Testament in particular. What we really see over and over is God using rebellious people, nations, whatever, to mete out his justice, right?

[01:03:34] It's not about God throwing the lightning bolts from heaven down himself. It's God utilizing what he has that he has to use, which is either good beings or bad beings, rebellious beings, right? And he can use both of those for his purposes. And so, you know, when the people of God are being given over to the other nations, God isn't like playing chess with those other nations and making those other nations do these things.

[01:04:05] Those other nations are just doing what they're doing. They're just going about their business the way they already do, because they are the kinds of nations that they are. They're not following Yahweh. They're following the other gods who already have this kind of way of doing things. You know, again, going back to the idea of becoming like the thing that you are worshiping.

[01:04:27] If anything, God removes his protection to allow the other nations to overrule the land and to take the nation of Israel into captivity. So because we see that so strongly in the exile, and we also see that kind of situation prior to the exodus in Egypt, that's what I see going on there.

[01:04:48] It's like, why would this be any different? You know, because if What happened at the tower was a kind of judgment of the people and a judgment of the gods Because they were involved in what was going on. So it's a judgment of both sides God's just gonna let them do what they're gonna do. He's gonna give them that freedom to you know It's like You give the rope so that they can hang themselves kind of a situation.

[01:05:14] So I'm coming very strongly to be on the side that they didn't have to be good. And in order for them to have been good, it introduces questions that don't really make a lot of sense. You know, the idea of how did people know that there were other gods to worship in the first place to make the situation even happen?

[01:05:34] So I think that kind of, it has a better explanatory power, and it fits better in the themes of scripture, I think.

[01:05:41] T.J. Steadman: That's what I think.

[01:05:44] Carey Griffel: But on the other hand, would you still call this a three fall narrative? Right? We have Genesis 3, Genesis 6, and Genesis 11. Even if they are the same beings who are involved, would you still say they are still three falls or would you describe it differently?

[01:06:03] T.J. Steadman: I think we're looking at a progression in which we have these three major steps. And it's a challenge for us because we don't view history and time the same way that ancient Israel did. So without trying to bake anyone's noodles on this, we kind of have a similar story playing out in a kind of spiral in which we go around and around and the same things happen again and again, but there's a little development.

[01:06:31] There's a little progress, which is why I say it's more like a spiral rather than a circle. And perhaps that stretches over space rather than being 2 dimensional, right? So space and time as we experience them appear to be this progression of moments and this sort of tangible 3 dimensional space that we occupy. But when you look at the ancient Israelite view of this, you kind of have to develop a cyclical view. You have to look at things as playing out again and again in different scenarios and different places, but somehow they all connect and interact.

[01:07:05] And there's these common threads in which people participate in those same events from the past in present experience. It's a very difficult thing to try and describe in a moment, but that's, I think, how we need to look at these fall narratives, like there's a sense in which we continue to participate in them all the time and on a narrative level, they appear to be just a story playing out in a few stages, but it's kind of like it's always happening.

[01:07:36] Carey Griffel: I like that. And actually, I have written down a quote from your book t I think really fits into this, so I'm going to go ahead and read that. This is at the end of section two of your book.

[01:07:48] It says, The Jewish people have long known that in order to understand the future, one must look into the past, recognizing that it is only then that we can see where we are in our own history. By seeing the world and its history as a series of cycles or retellings of the same stories in new settings. The people of God can learn to anticipate what must change in order to continue into the next phase.

[01:08:15] T.J. Steadman: I think the reason that it's told the way that it is in Scripture, where we have these sort of three major stages in this fall of both the humans and the divine beings which participate, you know, together in this. It's because we need to have it sort of broken down for us so we understand the component parts of this.

[01:08:33] You have this human rebellion where we basically decide, well, I'm going to decide for myself what's right and wrong. Sort of casting off that image bearing function by choosing to represent ourselves and what we want. And then you have these divine beings stepping in. Well we are going to hijack humanity to represent ourselves. And we're going to do that through the humans.

[01:08:56] And then once you get into the tower of Babel story and the implications of that, which you don't necessarily see on a surface reading of the text, but the idea is that these people want to make a name for themselves. They want to harness the divine to do that. And they are again bringing about the giants with the aim that they are going to represent the other gods. So we go from, we'll represent ourselves to the gods saying, well, they will represent us. And now it's humans going, well, we want to embody those gods, right? So we kind of need to have that spelled out for us through these different stages of the narrative. So we, we get an understanding of what's going on and I think that helps us in our own lives and in our own conduct as we consider the implications of our own choices.

[01:09:45] Carey Griffel: So what you have instead of just this story, and then this story, and then this story, like this chronological narrative, It's more a thing where you have one thing happen, and that affects the next thing that happens. And so there's this push back, back and forth, between the divine realm and the human realm, and we're both kind of doing the same kinds of things, trying to get our own ways, trying to Dig into our deeper desires for both the human side as well as the divine rebel side.

[01:10:17] And so, as we see the progression of the story, it's this back and forth motion. And again, that cyclical view of this is just going to keep happening and it's always happening. And you can choose to be either part of this side or that side. And whichever side you're going to choose to work to represent, that's the path that you're on.

[01:10:37] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, that's right. So it's vitally important that we keep these stories in mind, because, you know, we're not going to turn into giants if we do the wrong thing, but who are we representing? And are we on the side of the most high God, you know, who ultimately wins, right? I mean, we've read the end of the book.

[01:10:58] So it's really important that we check our motives when we do stuff. And. It's not even about what we get out of it in terms of, you know, are we on the winning side or the losing side? All of this stuff always has to be framed with a view to, okay, well, this is what God has done for me and how is it appropriate for me to respond to him?

[01:11:17] The appropriate response in view of the deliverance that God has worked in our lives is to represent him to others. And that's the whole thrust of this is, we don't try to embody other gods or try to use them to advantage or whatever because ultimately all good things are coming to us from God and to remain in that blessing we need to be faithful to him as he's been faithful to us.

[01:11:45] We need to represent him in word, in deed. I talk a lot about what we do, right? I mean, a lot of people are going to push back on that and say, well, you know, isn't it just believing you just, you know, you just believe. I, I'm always going to say, well, how do you believe you have to do, you know faith and works can't be so easily separated because it's about who you are becoming and who you are being and being can't be separated from doing, especially in the ancient world.

[01:12:13] There was really the whole notion of existence is rooted in doing. Right? If something works, it exists. And if it doesn't work, then it's worthless. It's nothing. So if you were going to represent God, then you need to do as he does in whatever capacity you can. And that is how you participate in the body of Christ.

[01:12:33] So yeah, ultimately , that's what we're all driving at. This idea of the church being called the body of Christ is about this connectedness, this allegiance, this participation in the works of God. And that's our appropriate response to what God has done for us. So, yeah, , that's where all this leads.

[01:12:50] You know, the idea of sitting down and writing a huge book about giants wasn't so, you know, to have cool stories to tell around a campfire. it's about helping us to understand the implications of our response to God.

[01:13:03] Carey Griffel: And so this seems to bring us into that question of the sons of God. In the Old Testament versus the Sons of God in the New Testament, and how we actually get to participate in that.

[01:13:15] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, well, that's a really important distinction to make. A lot of pushback against the idea of the Nephilim being, you know, demigods, if you like, comes back to the idea that the sons of God could only be people who are righteous. You know, because when you read the New Testament we're called the sons of God, particularly the Apostle John makes a lot of use of that terminology. The idea that we could be children of God or sons of God it seems to fly in the face of what we see when we look at the Old Testament.

[01:13:45] We have the sons of God who meet in the heavenly courts in the book of Job, the divine beings referred to in the Psalms. Unless we say, well, you know, they're just ordinary people. And I think the challenge for us is to understand these distinctions and what's going on there. Right. So. It's pretty clear when you do a study on the sons of God in that Old Testament context that we're talking about divine beings that participate in what God is doing in the world. They help to make decisions. They carry out things that God wants done. This is how they function, right? So and then these didn't sort of spring out of nowhere.

[01:14:21] They even back in ancient Mesopotamia, we had the, they were called the Anunnaki, the princely seed if we translate that closely. So the idea of seed being something that is like, or you know, something that will be like the progenitor so if we're talking about God, then that means beings who have some similarity to God to a lesser extent.

[01:14:41] So this idea of sons of God being connected to that idea what it really means for us is that those sons of God who rebelled and who were found guilty of these transgressions ultimately are removed from their place. And on the other hand, you have people who are faithful to God who are promised a glorious future, who are later described as sons of God, will effectively take their place, ultimately.

[01:15:08] That's not a present reality for us who live in our world now, although, to a limited extent it is, because we function as the body of Christ. And when we are called sons of God now that's just one of those things where you sort of participate in it now, but we're going to see the fullness of that in the future in our experience of the afterlife. I mean, these are a big lofty concepts and it's kind of hard to grasp them easily.

[01:15:32] But yeah, it's important we maintain that distinction between this Old Testament idea of the sons of God, these divine beings that rule the world under God. And then we look at these New Testament sons of God who are the saints. And the reason that that happens, the reason they're called the sons of God is primarily because our destiny is the function in that capacity.

[01:15:52] That's where we belong in that. And that's how it was supposed to be set out in the garden of Eden. You had a situation where the man was placed in the garden to be in charge under God, and ultimately we're all supposed to arrive in that position to function in that capacity.

[01:16:09] Unfortunately human rebellion has got in the way, and we've had all these attempts to subvert that, you know, the, the sons of God come down in Genesis six. Because they are trying to take that dominion back off the humans and they want it for themselves and the way to do it from their perspective was, well if we corrupt and destroy humans then that leaves God with no choice but to give us the authority over the earth ultimately. And of course God isn't gonna let that happen and the long game is basically to bring us back to that capacity which we participate in As part of the body of Christ and yeah, that's, where we're headed.

[01:16:44] Sorry, I'm talking really sort of loose vague terms here and kind of rambling, but yeah, it's an exciting destiny. And one that I think we, kind of shy away from because we are a little bit afraid of labeling. You know, we don't want to be thought of as people who think we could be equivalent to God or People who think that we are divine beings or whatever.

[01:17:04] To come to terms to what the scripture is actually teaching us Means that we will experience a kind of glorification In the resurrection and that puts us right back where we belong in authority over the renewed heavens and earth under God.

[01:17:18] So coming to terms with that is important, and that's why we're referred to as sons of God. Because we're going to function in that capacity. So, yeah, that's an exciting hope for the future and a wonderful thing to contemplate.

[01:17:29] Carey Griffel: Right. So I hope everyone can see how I was saying earlier that, you know, your work really does enter into this conversation about the gospel and how all of these crazy, strange things actually lead into understanding, What Jesus did and how important it is that we are in Christ because this is how we are his body.

[01:17:52] This is how we become that thing. It's not that we are literally becoming gods, right? I grew up thinking that and on some level it seemed weird to me then and it's very unbiblical now. It's not that we are becoming literal gods. But we are becoming transformed into what we should be. And this is the purpose of creation.

[01:18:16] This is the purpose of the incarnation. It wasn't just a response to Genesis 3, but it's part of the very fabric of reality, why Jesus had to come. But, you know, the longer History goes on, you have this spiral down into depravity and the interaction between humanity and the rebellious gods and how that plays out.

[01:18:40] All of that is really part and parcel of this story of salvation history. And it's, this is why I like the themes of the image of God because, That's one way to also see this kind of thing, in a less threatening way, I think, for a lot of people. But you see the same kinds of things in various types of themes. So, I think it's a beautiful thing, and so, yeah.

[01:19:06] T.J. Steadman: Yeah, these are as I say, wonderful things to contemplate and just to consider the, beauty of the plan of God and the way that this all works out to think of the grace that he's extended to us and to the promise and the future that he has for us, even after death.

[01:19:27] I mean, it's just amazing. And that's what I love. And, and what I've really enjoyed drawing out from the flood narrative as I've been exploring that on my podcast lately is looking at the hope that is there in the midst of this story of devastation and destruction. And it's written in such a way that you really get this sense that in, in midst of all this terrible stuff that's happening, that God is always in control, always extending grace, always offering hope. And he is able and he is faithful to carry that out.

[01:20:00] Carey Griffel: It's about time to wrap up, but thank you so much for coming on and having this conversation with me.

[01:20:07] T.J. Steadman: Oh, no worries. It's been an absolute pleasure.

[01:20:09] Carey Griffel: All right. Well, I hope everybody listening really enjoyed the conversation. If you guys have any questions for any of this kind of thing, please feel free either to reach out to me, reach out to Answers to Giant Questions. They do a great job in answering questions. It's such a fascinating way you structure your episodes because you give your content and you always try to answer a question and it might be related to something and it might not and it's always interesting.

[01:20:38] Thank you for listening I hope you guys got a lot out of this episode. If you guys could rate the podcast wherever you listen, I would really appreciate that. Anybody who wants to contact me can find me either on Facebook, or on my website at GenesisMarksTheSpot. com, where you can find guest profiles, you can find blog posts, you can even find artwork if you're into that kind of thing, and want to see what I'm working on.

[01:21:05] For those of you who are interested, I am kind of creeping up onto a hundred episodes and I hope to be doing, like, some sort of a giveaway. So, if anybody has Any ideas for what you want me to give away, you can let me know. I've got some ideas, but, you know, I'm, all ears for hearing ideas from you guys.

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