The Dark Side of the Cosmos - Episode 055

Carey Griffel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and I just realized that I've never actually explained in an episode what my tagline is about and why it's there. When I was looking at starting a podcast, I was doing a lot of research and trying to find out how to hone in on my topic and What I want to talk about and the purpose of my podcast in general. One of the best pieces of advice I got was to try and narrow down my focus in a short phrase of about 10 words. That phrase needs to describe my podcast and only my podcast. That is a tall order, let me tell you what.

But I hope you can see from my tagline that I have two basic [00:01:00] ideas that I'm trying to do in this podcast. First of all, I am trying to bring forth biblical theology and scholarly material and ideas to a wider audience. But I don't want to do that away from the application side of things. When we do these kinds of studies and deep dives, I want to be able to see how those things actually impact the life of the believer and the way that we understand theology and the way we live out our lives.

Because if we're doing biblical theology and we're studying the Bible in context, that needs to lead to application and impact in the life of the believer. And I absolutely believe that this is a natural thing that can happen. And that we can do, but a lot of places, it feels like that's kind of left out and people are often left hanging and wondering, well, what do we do about it now? What is this information good for? Why are we learning about it? And how does it [00:02:00] impact me and my discipleship walk?

I also wanted to capture a sense of adventure and a bit of my personality in my tagline to make it a little bit more unique as well. So that's the story behind my tagline. The interesting thing to me was that when I was coming up with this phrase, I wasn't trying to do a tagline. I was just trying to come up with a basic description that would help me make sure I am focusing in my podcast in the right way. It just so happened that it ended up being kind of a cool thing.

So that's the story of my tagline. And maybe I'm thinking about it today because The topic that I'm going to get into is one that is very frequently talked about as something that applies to the life of the believer, or at least to people in general, and it's supposed to motivate us.

But to be honest, this is a topic that it hasn't motivated me in the past. And [00:03:00] as a result, I've really struggled with engaging my curiosity in order to understand it better. Although the topic is much wider than this, what we're going to be getting into today is the concept of hell and the fate of people after they die.

And you might think, why doesn't that interest me? Well, the reason is, is because this tends to be something that is used as a bludgeon for people. Like, you better go evangelize and tell people about the gospel, because if you don't, they're going to end up in hell and they're going to end up tortured for all of eternity because you aren't doing your job as an evangelist. And I don't know about you, but the preacher on the street with the sign talking about hell, that's not motivating to me. And as a parent, and as a child previously, I kind of realized that fear is not the best motivator. So, if this is the reason we're talking to people about the [00:04:00] gospel. I feel like there's something wrong there.

But of course, this is still a topic that we need to understand. And the reason that I'm really excited about talking about it today is because I got clued into thinking about it in a different way than I normally do. and that was triggered by a question from Gracie. And I really appreciate Gracie's question. It's super interesting. I don't even think Gracie really expected me to go down this particular path while I was exploring the topic. But that is what you get when you start studying scripture and allowing yourself to follow down the paths that it leads. I had thought that I would include this question in my last Q& A episode, but the more I thought about it, there is definitely enough here to get into for a full episode.

At any rate, Gracie's question is, what does the deep have to do with outer darkness? This [00:05:00] is a great question. It's been actually a really long time since I've heard anyone even reference outer darkness. It's not a phrase you hear really frequently, and that's because it doesn't show up in scripture too often, but we'll get to that here in a bit.

As I think back to my previous life as a member of the LDS Church, I actually seem to recall the term Outer Darkness was used a little more frequently than the term Hell. LDS theology having a very different cosmology and view of the afterlife, they didn't tend to use the word Hell very often. I did hear the term Outer Darkness as a place where people would end up if they truly rejected God.

It seems to be used very specifically in Scripture, though. Not that it's necessarily a different place than something else, but again, we will get into all of that. First, we need to understand the deep, and when I look at that, I want to look at it in [00:06:00] a different way than just the usual biblical theology of the deep being chaos waters. Yes, that is what it is, but there's a lot more we can talk about there.

So, I'm going to talk about the context of the deep, and I'm also going to talk about the context where we see outer darkness appear. But outer darkness also needs to be set within the biblical framework of the afterlife, and that is potentially a bit of a mess to talk about. So, a lot of things that we need to disambiguate there, and really dig into the meaning and purpose of what is being talked about in various passages.

If I've got time, by the end of the episode, I will get into a little bit about Eternal Conscious Torment and whether or not that is a biblical view. If you're not familiar with the phrase Eternal Conscious Torment, that's really just the basic idea of hell, where unbelievers are consigned to hell and tortured for all [00:07:00] eternity as recompense for not believing or obeying or following God.

Just a teaser for that, I think you'll see by the end that the Bible's depiction of what happens in the afterlife is maybe less cohesive than we tend to think of it. It's actually very like the idea of how we get evil and the source of evil, right? Like, the simplistic answer is, oh, Satan. Satan is the source of evil. The source of sin in the world is seen as the Fall in Genesis 3. But as I've described it many times in this podcast, that's actually too simplistic. We're not understanding the spiritual realm in its full complexity. And I would suggest it's the same for the afterlife and just cosmology in general.

And, speaking of cosmology, that's what we're going to be talking about next. Cosmology is the structure of the cosmos. And this is [00:08:00] important to our topic here, because both the deep and outer darkness seem to be aspects of the universe, or the cosmos, or the structure of reality in some way. Even if we take the deep and outer darkness to be metaphorical, or symbolic, or allegorical, You still need to understand metaphors in this way from within the structure of our reality.

One of the most basic things to understand as far as cosmology goes is that our understanding of cosmology is not fixed through time. It's not consistent even necessarily in the Bible. So it makes sense that we're going to see change and variation and different ways of expressing the cosmology and structure of either the world, or the spiritual realm, or the afterlife, or what have you.

Our cosmology tends to be an expression of our worldview. And our [00:09:00] worldview, and our understanding of reality, it just develops through time. And when you add in the fact that we can have progressive revelation, and by that I just mean revelation that increases over time, then it makes sense that the cosmology of later time might not line up exactly with the cosmology of an earlier time.

And our cosmologies are very embedded into the structure of our societies and the way that we view the world from within those societies. This is why we need to study parallel literature and things because those things are all expressions of the same society and culture and they help us understand what's going on in the minds of the ancient Israelite.

The Old Testament has the same kind of cosmology that the Ancient Near East in general had, which can be described as basically a three tiered cosmos. You have the heavens, you have the earth, or [00:10:00] the land, and you have under the earth, which can also be said to be the deep. So the waters of the sea and underneath the earth can be seen as the same kind of a realm.

By the time of the New Testament, there were more influences at play. The Greco Roman cosmos was similar, but slightly different. And there were more external influences from a wider area as well.

Of course, in our modern day we have a very different cosmology. And this is with the influence of science and actual observation of the world around us. Part of the reason we've lost some of this supernatural understanding of the cosmos and reality is because of this change in cosmology. We have different categories of thought today than there used to be, I think. At any rate, this is the context of the deep within this three tiered structure of the universe.

I've talked [00:11:00] before about the deep and the chaos waters, and basically the image that we should be looking at here is that of the sea. Really violent water that you can't cross or traverse Without some precautions and preparation, right? And even then, you still might get killed when you're out on the sea.

The deep is primarily associated with the sea, but we can also connect it with the way that the wilderness was seen. Basically, these are areas where life does not thrive. But the deep is actually a lot more than that, too. The deep can function as a source of decreation or judgment. Just like we see at the beginning and the end of the flood narrative. We have the windows of heaven open and the fountains of the deep. So water is coming from both sides in order to flood the world. And take note there that it's not just the fountains of the deep, but it's also the windows of heaven that are involved.[00:12:00]

The deep is also the realm of the dead. We see this in Jonah chapter 2, for instance. In verse two, it says, I called out to the Lord out of my distress and he answered me out of the belly of Sheol I cried and you heard my voice. For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas and the flood surrounded me. All your waves and your billows passed over me. Then I said, I am driven away from your sight, yet I shall again look upon your holy temple. The water's closed in over me to take my life. The deep surrounded me. Weeds were wrapped about my head at the root of the mountains. I went down to the land, whose bars closed upon me forever. Yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God. End quote.

The word for deep in the New Testament is the abyss. In Romans 10 7 we see that this is described again as the underworld. The place of the dead. [00:13:00] Now, it makes some sense to us to have Sheol, or the realm of the dead, to be underground, right? Because they're burying their dead underground. So, that's just a natural association. When the body of your dead loved one is going in the ground, then you're going to use that kind of language for underworld, the afterlife. However, it's less obvious to us when we see that the deep is also a term for the underworld. Because that's water, that's not dry land that you're burying someone in, right? But remember, in this three tiered cosmology, the deep and under the earth are the same realm.

The deep is the realm of monsters like Leviathan. And in the New Testament, the deep is the realm of Satan and his minions and demons and the like. We see this in Luke 8, 31, with the casting out of the demons. They don't want to go back into the abyss. They want to be cast [00:14:00] into the pigs instead. And in a stroke of irony, the pigs go into the sea, so they're still going into the abyss. They just took a little shortcut to get there.

The deep can be seen as imprisonment for wicked spirits. We see this in 2 Peter 2, 4, and in Jude 6. Both of which are talking about the fate of the sons of God from Genesis 6. We also have quite a few verses in Revelation that suggest this. If you want to look those up, you can look at Revelation 9, 1 through 2, and verse 11, Revelation 11, 17, 17, 8, as well as 20, verses 1 and 3.

I actually had a conversation on the YouTube channel, Storeroom of Scripture, about the deep. And I'll try to remember to link that in the show notes.

Unsurprisingly, the deep can also be an expression of grave trouble. We see [00:15:00] this often in the Psalms. Psalm 69, for instance, says, quote, Deliver me from sinking in the mire. Let me be delivered from my enemies and from the deep waters. Let not the flood sweep over me, or the deep swallow me up, or the pit close its mouth over me, end quote.

However, it might be surprising to you to see that the deep can also be a source of blessing and life. Ezekiel talks about Assyria as a cedar in Lebanon. In Ezekiel 31 4 says, quote, The waters nourished it. The deep made it grow tall, making its rivers flow around the place of its planting, sending forth its streams to all the trees of the world. End quote. Psalm 78 references a time of the wilderness wanderings. In verses 15 and 16, it says, He split rocks in the wilderness and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep. [00:16:00] He made streams come out of the rock and caused waters to flow down like rivers. End quote.

So understanding what the deep is, is really complex. It has a range of meaning, and so we can't just take one instance of it and decide that it means the same thing every time. Most of the time, it probably is just a basic reference to the sea. But of course, it's often connected with underground and darkness as well. But not all darkness is a reference to the deep. Remember that it also hovers on the face of the deep in Genesis 1. While we can't say that every instance of darkness is also an instance of the deep, we can say that there is an intimate connection between those two things.

Just like you have the contrast of darkness and light, you also have the contrast of the depths versus the heights. You have the deep, and you have the heavens. [00:17:00] You have height, which is emotional well being, and lowness, which is distress and depression and trouble. But again, just like we can't say that all darkness is part of the deep, nor can we say that the deep is always a negative thing, we can also say that there are outliers here, because what about the instance of Satan taking Jesus up on the temple, where they are up on the heights, but Jesus is being tempted? So, just because light and height are often positive, and darkness and depths are often negative, that doesn't mean they always are. Another good example of this is that fire is light, and sometimes fire is a good thing and sometimes it's a bad thing.

The imagery of depth and darkness can also be one of mystery. Job 11. 7 talks about the deep things of God. Daniel 2. 2 talks about deep and hidden things. 1 Corinthians 2. [00:18:00] 10 talks about the Spirit which searches even the depths of God. Psalm 92. 5 talks about God's thoughts being deep.

As a general concept, the deep seems to be more of an ancient Near Eastern or Old Testament concept, whereas by the time of the second temple Or the New Testament, there was much more talk about darkness and fire rather than depth. Although again, of course, we do have the concept of the bottomless pit or the abyss that shows up in the New Testament. Of course, scholars have wondered about this change between the Old Testament and the New Testament, where the Old Testament seems to have much more to do with the deep. and darkness, and the New Testament has more fire imagery. One thing that scholars have wondered about is an Iranian influence from the religion of Zoroastrianism. This is a bit hard for them to pin down, because [00:19:00] a lot of that is oral tradition, and they're not really sure exactly how strong of a foothold Zoroastrianism had with places that had influence on the Bible. And in some cases, the influence might be reversed. Judaism might have actually had an influence on Zoroastrianism. There are a lot of complex textual issues regarding how you figure that out.

Alright, so that's some of the basics surrounding the concept of the deep. What I'm going to talk about next might feel a little bit strange in the context here, but I think in the end you'll see why I'm going to do this.

I want to talk about some models of creation. These are not the views of creation like I've been talking about in several other episodes. Whether you have the six day creation or the functional creation or what have you, this is a bit different. But they're important because we do see each of these models in Genesis, we see all of them working together, and they can help us [00:20:00] see how God works in creation.

And so, because we're talking largely about cosmology and the ways that the deep and outer darkness connect, this is going to also show up in eschatological ways. Eschatological, of course, meaning just the end times, right? The end of things. And I am a big proponent of the idea that creation and the end times are actually intimately connected.

You can read more about these models of creation in Mark Smith's book, The Priestly Vision of Genesis 1. Basically, in creation, God is acting in three different roles. the kingly role, the role of the sage, and the role of the priest. It's not a matter of choosing one or the other. It's that God is doing all three of these things. He is acting in each of these roles, and we can see that evidently in creation. The overarching role is probably that of the [00:21:00] king, and the sage and the priest fit underneath that. But the way that the king acts is like a warrior king, like a wise ruler, or like a monarch in a sanctuary. The actions of each of these roles are seen through the lenses of power by the warrior king, wisdom by the wise ruler, and presence by the monarch in the sanctuary.

Of course, in other ancient Near Eastern texts, we see the idea of divine conflict, or the warrior king, at play quite often in those texts. Occasionally, we will also see the wise sage or the priest. But let's talk about the Bible and how we see each of these in Genesis. Well, before we go there, we can look at how these three models of creation relate to humanity in different ways.

God exercising his power as a warrior king is seen when he is acting against spiritual evil, [00:22:00] or when he is acting in politics in some way, as he often does in the Old Testament. The role of the sage or the wisdom is about living rightly. And the role of the priest mediator is being in relationship with God.

What's neat is that we can see all of these fulfilled in the New Testament. Christ is bringing back the nations and defeating the principalities. He is also the logos, our justification or our source of morality. And then of course we have the concept of the presence or the priest. We see this in the body of Christ with the spirit indwelling us.

So, these all relate to creation as well as new creation, but they have something to do with destruction and the fate of the wicked as well. When we bring this over to the concept of the deep, we're mostly thinking about the power involved there, right? The divine conflict of the deity [00:23:00] against the sea monster. That's how it shows up in ancient Near Eastern literature around the area. Of course, we don't have that conflict in the Bible, but we still have the associated imagery. However, I think we can see the concepts of wisdom and presence that factor into the fate of the rebellious, as well as the concept of the deep.

Even though we don't have a whole lot of passages that suggest God is subduing water in creation, we do have a few, such as in Job 9, 8, which says, quote, God alone stretched out the heavens and trampled the waves of the sea, end quote. If God didn't have to subdue the waters, and if he does have control over them, then a question we might ask is why are the waters still a problem? Why do they pose a threat to humanity? And the answer is that they continue to be a problem after creation at the behest of God. God is using them as a source [00:24:00] of judgment. So here we are with this connection to the fate of the wicked now.

Okay, so wisdom. What does the deep have to do with wisdom? Well, part of that is that the deep obeys God. in Psalm 104, verses 5 through 9, it says, He set the earth on its foundations so that it should never be moved. You covered it with the deep as with a garment. The waters stood above the mountains. At your rebuke they fled. At the sound of your thunder, they took to flight. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.

Of course, this seems to be referencing the flood, but the way it's portraying it is that by God's word, the deep is commanded. This might also be suggested by the spirit, or wind, or breath that is in Genesis 1. The [00:25:00] spirit, or wind, or breath that hovers over the face of the deep. It is also God's word that separates the dry ground from the deep. The word of wisdom is needed for a righteous, and thriving, and fruitful life.

I'm also going to quote from a Second Temple text called Sirach, which I found really interesting. In chapter 24, verses 3 through 5, it is referencing wisdom when it says, quote, I came out of the mouth of the Most High, and covered the earth as a cloud. I dwelt in high places, and my throne is in a cloudy pillar. I alone compassed the circuit of heaven. And walked in the bottom of the deep, in the waves of the sea, and in all the earth, and in every people and nation, I got a possession. End quote. So I find that very interesting. Wisdom walking in the deep.

Our last model of creation is that of the priest, or the presence of [00:26:00] God. The passage I just read suggests that there is a presence of God, even in the deep. We've talked before about how the sacred space of the Israelites, the tabernacle and the temple, all have creation motifs embedded in them. If the temple or the tabernacle are a form of Eden, then outside the camp is the wilderness or the threat of the cosmic waters.

So the deep is a place of threat. And also one of potential judgment. After all, this is why they were wandering in the wilderness, right? Because they were being judged. So, in general, the Deep is symbolic of a lack of presence of God. Of course, that's not a complete lack where God has no control over it at all or cannot go. But, people who go into the Deep, into Sheol, need rescue and deliverance. The chaos attempts to be in rebellion. The wilderness, or the chaos, [00:27:00] or outside the camp and the tabernacle, that's as opposite as one can go from God. There's a real sense of separation. Of course, this isn't where ideal flourishing happens. And judgment comes from this area, or this space.

There are so many passages I could bring out to look at this contrast, and it's expressed in different ways. I've already mentioned the depths and the heights, the lights and the darkness. And darkness being a mystery, it doesn't have to be a negative thing, but it often is. And it often is portrayed as a kind of ignorance that is self inflicted.

It's connected to what the people are worshiping and how they're living their lives. When the people are not trusting in God's power to deliver them, and they're not living into the presence of God in their midst, and they're not living in wise ways. This is the time of judgment. You see, it's not just about [00:28:00] checking the boxes and living a right way because that's the right way to do it.

It is all of these things that are wrapped up into the concept of righteous living. If you're not living righteously, it's probably because you're not paying attention to the fact that God is trying to be present with you, and he wants to deliver you, and you are blind to it. You are willfully blind, and you are turning away from God.

That's the problem. And all of that is wrapped up into what I just talked about in creation. If we are trusting in God and living into his way, then he will take care of us. He will allow the deep to nourish us and to cause our thriving. But if we're not living in the way of God, then the deep is something that is going to be our source of trouble and distress and judgment.

Now, like I said, the Deep has everything to do with Sheol and the realm of the dead, and I [00:29:00] think Genesis and other places are pretty clear in that we are to see death as a form of consequence for our unrighteous living, right? There's a separation from God and that's not right. That's not the way that creation is meant to be. That is not God's purposes. We aren't supposed to be separated from him. We aren't supposed to be in the grave. We aren't supposed to be in the pit. We aren't supposed to be in the deep. God wants to rescue us from that. Death is a perversion of creation. It needs to be fixed. We need to be delivered from it.

So in this sense, the deep is something that is opposed to God's ultimate will, but he will use it for his purposes in order to accomplish his will. There's a lot that I could say about light versus darkness in all of this. I did talk about light previously in another episode, in episode number 22 [00:30:00] if you wanna go back and give that a listen after you've listened to this, it might be a bit interesting, but we're gonna move on to the passages about outer darkness, and we're going to dig into the context there.

Alright, so the term outer darkness, it only shows up in Matthew. So first, let's go into the context of Matthew as a whole. Matthew is a fascinating book. It has a lot of emphasis on the kingdom of heaven. and Israel's Messiah. I mean, that seems like an obvious thing for a gospel to have, right? But I think that this plays into the fact that there is a lot of conflict between Jesus and the Israelite religious leaders of the day.

I'm going to bring out my Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible and read a little bit from the introduction to the book of Matthew. It says, quote, Along with John, Matthew is also an [00:31:00] emphatically Jewish gospel. Matthew moves in a thought world resembling that of the emerging rabbinic movement, the circle of Jewish sages and law teachers, more than do the other synoptic gospels.

Later on, it says, Matthew addresses an audience comfortable with traditional Jewish forms of speech. For example, one need only compare Mark's pervasive Kingdom of God with Matthew's usual Kingdom of Heaven to see that Matthew prefers traditional and emphatically Jewish formulations. Because Jewish thinking took many forms in different parts of the ancient world, it is valuable to be more precise in this case. Whereas Jewish people who liked apocalyptic literature would particularly appreciate Revelation, Jews in the Diaspora would appreciate Hebrews. And groups such as the Essenes might appreciate John's Gospel, Matthew often moves in a more rabbinic world. That is, the views and arguments of teachers and [00:32:00] interpreters of the law, who came to be called rabbis, are very relevant to Matthew's Gospel. Most of the sources from which we know rabbinic thought are later, but they offer numerous parallels to Matthew's way of handling Scripture and intimate understanding of Pharisaic debates with Jesus. Because Jesus was himself a sage and engaged in discussion and often debate with pharisaic leaders, Matthew continues to engage a world within which Jesus himself moved. End quote.

So Matthew is a very Jewish gospel, as they say, and he's very focused on the life of the Jewish believer. So we need to keep in mind his audience as we're reading. The first time we see the term Outer Darkness is in Matthew 8, 12. This is the story of the Roman centurion who wants to have his servant healed.

So, at first blush, this is a historical occurrence, right? With a Roman centurion coming to Jesus to ask him for healing. [00:33:00] But let's read the actual passage. It starts in verse 5. Quote, When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly. And he said to him, I will come and heal him. But the centurion replied, Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word and my servant will be healed. For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, go, and he goes, and to another, come, and he comes, and to my servant, do this, and he does it. When Jesus heard this, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, Truly I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [00:34:00] And to the centurion Jesus said, Go, let it be done for you as you have believed. And the servant was healed at that very moment. End quote.

So, remember Matthew's audience. Matthew's audience is a Jewish one. And yet, this story centers around the faith of a Roman centurion. This was probably meant to be a bit shocking and kind of packs a little bit of a punch here for Matthew's audience. No one in Israel has faith like this Roman centurion. Seriously, Matthew? Really? What's going on here? And the quote containing the term outer darkness, it's not really in the context of this historical narrative with the Roman centurion.

Jesus is really couching it in the form of a parable. He is saying that many will come to recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. So all of these Gentiles are going to come, and they're going to go to the [00:35:00] banquet with the patriarchs, while the sons of the kingdom That's probably referencing the Israelites there, will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So this isn't really a very happy story for a Jewish audience. They don't want to hear that kind of thing. They want to be the ones who are elect, who are chosen, who are going to be at the banquet. And instead, Jesus is saying that people from the East and West That's surrounding nations are going to be at this banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

And who is going to be thrown into the outer darkness? It's going to be the people who should have been faithful to begin with, who should have been the ones with faith. So the context isn't Gentiles, it's not all of humanity, it's the people of God, the people of Israel, who are going to be thrown into outer darkness.

And what's with this gnashing of [00:36:00] teeth business, for that matter? We're going to find that in each of these passages, as well as a few other places. In the Old Testament, we see it in a few places, like in Job 16, 9, which says, quote, He has torn me in his wrath and hated me. He has gnashed his teeth at me. My adversary sharpens his eyes against me. End quote. We also see it in Psalm 35, 16, which says, quote, Like profane mockers at a feast, they gnash at me with their teeth, end quote. There's a few other places we see it in the Old Testament, and it's always got this context of wicked people taunting. But that's really not the sense that we get in the New Testament.

In the New Testament, it's used with a sense of hopelessness. It's still used by the wicked people. But, instead of taunting, they are weeping and mourning and acting in a hopeless [00:37:00] manner. We see this phrase, the gnashing of the teeth, in Matthew 13. We see it twice in verses 42 and 50. And each of those say, And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So here we don't have outer darkness. Instead we have a fiery furnace. The same kind of idea is going on here, right? So keep that imagery in mind of the fiery furnace with outer darkness. Matthew uses the term gnashing of teeth without the term outer darkness in 2451 as well.

And here it says, quote, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and put him with the hypocrites. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, end quote. This one doesn't mention either outer darkness or a fiery furnace, but it mentions [00:38:00] being put with hypocrites.

And considering the other uses, we can probably assume that the hypocrites have the same fate as the other people. Into outer darkness, into the fiery furnace, whatever that is going to mean. By the way, outer darkness and the gnashing of teeth, We also see this in the Book of Enoch, and it's got similar kind of meaning there.

Okay, so after Matthew 8 12, we have Matthew 22 13. And this is also in the context of a banquet, or a feast. I'm going to start reading at verse one here. Quote, And again, Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again, he sent other servants, saying, Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been [00:39:00] slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast. But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them.

The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find. And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good.

So the wedding hall was filled with the guests. But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then the king said to the attendants bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for many [00:40:00] are called, but few are chosen, end quote. Alright, again, we have the context of a parable and another feast. The mention of the kingdom of heaven and people who are called, who do you suppose those are? Of course, it's the unfaithful Israelites. The servants who are murdered are the prophets of God. Those who are initially chosen do not come, therefore others are chosen, and they do come.

However, there is the one man who is not properly attired, and he is cast out. Now, of course, a lot of emphasis is placed on what is this garment that he is supposed to be wearing? What does that symbolize explicitly? Most of the commentaries I read suggest that too much emphasis on that point is a bit misguided.

What the garment is isn't really the point. The point is that the people who were chosen first, rejected God, didn't come, so [00:41:00] others are called in their place, but being called and actually responding and going is still not enough. Apparently there is some sort of participation that is still needed, even if you're going to the wedding feast, you can't just do whatever you want there. There are standards, there are things to be done, and there are expectations. So even if you're not part of the initial chosen and you're the second chosen, you can still be rejected.

The context of who is going into outer darkness is still the chosen one. It's still somebody who was elect, who was supposed to be there, who was invited, but it's not enough just to be chosen. It's not enough just to be elect. It's not enough merely to be invited. And even to respond to that initial invitation. So, again, the people thrown into outer darkness are not just any old person at all. They aren't Gentiles who had no [00:42:00] ability to understand who God was. It's not just about doing the right thing and getting a reward. It's about following God and being in the appropriate kind of relationship experience there.

Oh, and by the way, this parable has a larger context. It is the last in a series of three parables that go from Matthew 21 28 to 22 14. An interesting note is that previous to these parables, Jesus's authority is challenged by the religious leaders.

And immediately after these parables, his authority is again challenged. In the question of, do we pay taxes to Caesar? In the middle of these two challenges are these three parables. The first is about the two sons. The first son says, he's not going to go to work, but he goes anyway. The second son says, yes, I will go to work, but he doesn't. And it's the one [00:43:00] who actually goes to work who is rewarded. The second parable is the parable of the tenants. The original tenants killed the servants. And, again, the servants are the prophets and people of God. And the vineyard had to be given over to new tenants. So you see, in each of these parables, there's an idea of faithfulness and obedience.

The ones who are obedient to God are the ones who will end up rewarded. And if you're not obedient to God, and you should darn well know better, then you're going to be cast into outer darkness.

So, the challenge of authority led to Jesus saying just because you're in this good place doesn't mean anything. If you're not doing God's work, if you're killing God's people, and you're not in the right attire, and you know better, then you're in trouble. I mean, this is Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, and he's talking to people who should really understand who he is. They should [00:44:00] recognize him and instead they are challenging him. And he's saying, well, if you're going to be like that, then guess what your fate is.

Okay. Our final passage about outer darkness is in Matthew 25, 30. And surprise, surprise, it's another parable. This is the parable of the talents. I am going to start reading in verse 14. Quote, For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.

Now after a long time, the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And [00:45:00] he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, Master, you delivered to me five talents. Here, I have made five talents more. His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master. And he also who had the two talents came forward saying, Master, you delivered to me two talents. Here I have made two talents more. His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master. He also who had received the one talent came forward saying, master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours. But his master answered him, You wicked and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I [00:46:00] have not sown, and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents, for to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away, and cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth end quote.

So again, we have those who are not faithful, who should have been faithful and who knew better. Those are the ones who are cast into outer darkness. Note that these aren't vicious murderers. They are people who should have known better and didn't act like it. They were the chosen people who failed in their faithfulness to their master. Now, that kind of sounds a bit scary to us, right? Like, what if we're [00:47:00] not faithful? Will we be tossed into outer darkness?

I think we need to keep in mind Matthew's audience and Jesus audience. Who is Jesus really directing this to? Is he directing it to the common person who just struggles day to day? Or is he directing it to the leaders? The religious leaders of the day who really are dropping the ball in a severe way. They should have noticed Jesus. They should have known who he was. They should be rejoicing in Jesus. But instead, they're challenging him to his face. And remember the context from 2451, I think it was, where the hypocrites are going to be the ones gnashing their teeth? These people know what they're doing. They are actively not doing it. So it's really not talking about everybody. This isn't a general statement. This really isn't a message [00:48:00] in general to everyone. Unless you happen to be one of these people who are in a leadership position, they should know better and they're actively flaunting their authority and challenging Jesus instead of submitting to him.

So again, who is going into outer darkness? In Matthew 8 12, it's the sons of the kingdom. And remember, Jesus is directly addressing a Roman, but he's doing so in the context of really addressing the Pharisees and the religious leaders, I think. In Matthew 22 13, the one going into outer darkness is the guest, or the friend, without the garment, who thinks he can just slide along, and he came, so it's good enough, right? No, it's not good enough. And then in 2530, it's the worthless servant who knew exactly what his master was like and what his master expected, but didn't do it.

There's one more place in the New [00:49:00] Testament that everyone points to in regards to the outer darkness, even though the term is not used in this passage. And that is the passage with the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16, 19 through 31. Remember, a lot of people are not sure if this is a parable or if it's a historical thing that's going on that Jesus is telling them about. But all things considered, it's probably a parable, but that doesn't make it any less important, right?

So, yeah. I am gonna go ahead and read it. It says, quote, There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen, who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores. Who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried and in Hades being in torment, he lifted up his [00:50:00] eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, and he called out. Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue.

For I am in anguish in this flame. But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things. But now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.

And he said, Then I beg you, Father, to send him to my father's house. For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment. But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. And he said, No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.

He said to him, [00:51:00] If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead. end quote You can probably see the parallels of this story with the stories that include Outer Darkness, right? There's the aspect of parable, the suggestion that, you know what, you already knew what you were supposed to do, and you chose not to do it, so here you are.

Interesting also are a few more parallels, like The Feast and Anguish, or Torment. Of course, a lot of people like to mine this story for little details, like There's two areas of the dead. Were there two areas in the dead in the Old Testament? Well, probably not, but there are Second Temple literature passages that suggest a kind of dualism in the realm of the dead, or that there are categories of the dead.

Second Esdras 736 speaks of hell and how there is a pit of [00:52:00] torment on one side and a paradise of light on the other side. Note the opposition of dark and light there. But both are in the realm of the dead. In 1st Enoch 51 verse 1, in 22, 3, and 4, and verses 9 and 10 through 13, there's an idea that the dead are separated into various classes.

So they're already judged and put into different areas. There remains an idea, however, of a final judgment, of course. All right, so now here we are needing to get into the actual context of biblical thought as to the afterlife. Most of the Old Testament speaks in a very simplistic way. It talks about Sheol, about the deep, about the pit, the grave, this kind of language.

And in the Old Testament, there's not really an idea that there is a separation or categories. Everybody kind of went to the same place. [00:53:00] But there was a hope for rescue. A lot of the hope of life after death in the Old Testament was through the establishment of the name through their heirs. And the land's inheritance going on through their heirs.

So the idea of remembrance and things like that. But I think we can't discount the actual idea that they wanted a respite and rescue from the grave. That it wasn't just the end at that point. You see this quite often in the Psalms. Yes. You see it in Isaiah 25, 8, where it says, He will swallow up death forever.

You see it in Daniel 12, 2, where many shall awake. And there's quite a few other passages. We already talked about death and Sheol being connected with the deep and darkness. Job 10, verses 21 and 22 says, Quote, The land of darkness and deep shadow, The land of gloom, like thick darkness, Like deep shadow without any [00:54:00] order where light is as thick darkness. End quote.

But there are so many ways death is described in the Old Testament. Sometimes it's seen as an actual release from torment. Perhaps in job three 20 through 22, it says, why is light given to him who is in misery and life to the bitter in soul?

who long for death

but it comes

Carey Griffel: not

and dig for

Carey Griffel: it in hidden treasures

Of course, this was Job mourning and complaining about things, but even so, death can be seen frequently as something that is a benefit. Jonah 4. 3 says, Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live. end quote.

There's kind of an interesting tradition of death being a place where people aren't [00:55:00] going to remember God. They're not going to be able to praise him or worship him. And of course, death is often seen as a kind of sleep or sleep is a metaphor for death.

A lot of people take these passages as literal, as kind of a soul sleep idea. Like when you die, you're just asleep and you're not going to remember anything. The trouble with that is that we see so many passages where that's not the case, where people seem to be alive when they're dead, and they seem to be conscious. So I think we shouldn't take these ideas of death as sleep too literally. Like, there's such a thing as metaphor, and sleep tends to be a pretty good metaphor for death. By the time we get to the New Testament, I think it's pretty obvious already that we see a shift in how this is seen, at least slightly.

It's not really a major shift. There is still a realm of the dead where people are going to go, where we all go, and we need [00:56:00] rescue from. Now, there is a question in the New Testament about whether or not all the dead still go into Sheol, or Hades as it is now called, in the New Testament, or if only the ungodly are sent there.

Acts 2, 27 and 31 says, quote, For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption, eNd quote.. So, this is quoting Psalm 1610, but some wonder if this is indicating that not all dead go there anymore. That there is already a release from the realm of the dead. And of course that this release happened because of Christ.

Then we have passages like Luke 16, 19 through 31 with the rich man and Lazarus. And Revelation 20, [00:57:00] 13, and so on, where the sea is giving up their dead. And in Revelation 20, it suggests that there's judgment. And so, there's this question of, does that mean that it's the ungodly only who are there? And is there really a different place now, and not everyone is going to the realm of the dead? I personally feel like there's too few passages to really suggest that. We do have, you know, Christ went into the underworld, he went into the realm of the dead, he went into Hades, and he came out, and he led captives out of there. So maybe that indicates that we don't go into the realm of the dead anymore, and that we do just enter straight into paradise. But there is some conjection there, and I think getting too dogmatic about it, like there's no reason for that, because we know that there is going to be justice and goodness happening. So, trying to get really specific and dogmatic about it, I think that's a bit [00:58:00] mistaken.

Okay, so we've got Sheol in the Old Testament, and that is translated as Hades in the New Testament. So, here is where we're going to get into some nuance about hell and what that is. And this is why it's complicated, because we have many things that are referring to the same general concept.

Some of them just mean the same thing, and others have a nuance to them, right? So we have the deep, we have the abyss, or the bottomless pit, or just the pit in general. Those seem to be about the same thing as Sheol, right? There seems to be quite a bit of unpleasantness there, but there is hope, and by the time of the New Testament it might have areas where it's less unpleasant for some people than it is for other people. You can still say that there is a sense of anguish and torture and [00:59:00] need for deliverance in the realm of the dead. Which, again, that's the deep, that's Sheol, that's the pit, that's the abyss, that's Hades. And, again, some of those terms are a little bit broader than the realm of the dead, too.

If you have the abyss and the deep those can just be realms of Satan and demons, right? So Hades and Sheol and that kind of idea, it can have the sense of torment and anguish. And because by the New Testament, there are areas and categories of space here. This can be a form of just judgment in general, and it can be less judgment or more judgment in these areas.

But then we have the term Gehenna. Which is often translated as hell, sometimes it's left untranslated. What's frustrating in our English Bibles is that a lot of times Hades is also translated as [01:00:00] hell, so you really have to look at an interlinear or something like that in order to determine what word is being used here in a certain passage. In the passage of Lazarus and the rich man, it is not Gehenna, it is Hades, but again, we see that he is being tormented.

But he's in a general area that's like the realm of the dead because he can see Lazarus over across the way, who is also dead. So even though there's a sense of judgment and torture there, we need to not jump to the conclusion that Hades and Gehenna are the same thing. And if this is a parable, then that even lessens the likelihood that we should be making one to one correspondences of some particular area.

So, the term Gehenna is an actual place. It stems from the Valley of Hinnom, which was associated in the Old Testament with child sacrifice and, , burning of the children in the sacrificial ritual. [01:01:00] I'm not going to read these passages, but you can look them up. We see the Valley of Hinnom in Joshua 15, 8, in 18, 16, in 2 Chronicles 28, 3, in 2 2 Kings 23, 10, and 16, 3. And in Jeremiah, 19, 6 and 7. And all of these are speaking of the same general area, with the same context of child sacrifice and burning. You can also see this context in Second Temple literature. In First Enoch, 27, verse 1 and 2. In 54, verses 1 through 6. In 90, verses 25 through 27. And also in Second Baruch, 85, 13.

Gehenna is not Hades. Hades is like Sheol. It's the intermediate state. And there could be the idea that only your soul is going there. You're not actually there physically with your [01:02:00] body. Gehenna, on the other hand, is the location of a final judgment, where body and soul can be destroyed, or go into Gehenna at least.

Matthew 10, 28 says, Quote, And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. And the word hell there is Gehenna. Luke 12, 5 says, Quote, But I will warn you whom to fear. Fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

There is a sense of destruction here. Now, because Hell is this fiery, destroying type place, it's legitimate to wonder if it's the same place as the Lake of Fire in Revelation. We find that in Revelation 19, 20, 20, 10, 14, and 15, and [01:03:00] 21, 10. That seems to be a different place than the Deep, which, again, is thought to be Sheol, right?

Because in Revelation, you do have the Abyss. And both the abyss and the sea, or the deep, are associated with Sheol, and both are no more. Right? The sea being no more in Revelation, it doesn't mean there's no ocean. It means there's no deep. It means there's no longer the realm of the dead. The lake of fire might still be there at the end of Revelation, but again, it's really tricky and sticky to try and set all of this up in some kind of chronology.

And here's the other thing. In case you didn't notice, there's a lot of hyperbole in all of this language. That means that it's potentially metaphorical. So the Lake of Fire might not be a real place at all. It might be a state, or just [01:04:00] something that happens, or I don't know what. But I find it so odd that everyone has taken this really hyperbolic language. And they've just decided, you know what, we're going to treat this as literal. Like, really? Like, is the heavens really up in the skies? And are people who die really under our feet? And, look, there's just not that many places that Scripture actually talks about Gehenna. Most of the time, Scripture is talking about the deep, or the pit, or Sheol, or the abyss, or outer darkness.

So we have all of these terms. And the question is Are they all the same thing? Are they different? Like, I've just shown that the term outer darkness is very specific. Now, does that mean that there is some specific zone that is just dedicated to these types of people who are going to go there? I don't think so.

I don't think that's how we should read it at [01:05:00] all. Because this is metaphorical language. It's imagery that is describing a real reality that's probably going to go on. Just like a parable is a story that it's, we don't need to be concerned about its historicity or its plausibility. It's explaining something in a narrative way that is very real and that we should take very seriously, right?

Like the people that Jesus was talking to, the leaders of the day who were rejecting Jesus, there really is that aspect of judgment, and that's real. It doesn't matter if Outer Darkness is a particular place. That just happens to be the metaphor and the imagery that Matthew is using in order to get his point across.

It is very like Hell, Gehenna, the Fiery Furnace, the Lake of Fire. All of these things are, they're very similar in concept. They are about [01:06:00] judgment. And it's very vivid imagery and it is connected to a historical place. Which, that in and of itself just tells me, this is a metaphor. And again, that doesn't mean not true.

That doesn't mean not literal. Because the whole point of the metaphor in the story is that there really is something going on here that you ought to be concerned about. Alright, just for completion's sake, I will mention Mark chapter 9, which is another place we see Gehenna. There's some text issues with this passage, so depending on what Bible version you're reading, you may have missing verses here, just because they're not quite sure which verses were in the original manuscript or not.

But in the ESV, Mark 9, starting in verse 42, says, Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown [01:07:00] into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die. And the fire is not quenched, for everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another. End quote.

So again, this is about judgment. And at the beginning of the passage that I was reading, it said it would be better to be thrown into the sea, which again, that's the imagery of the deep, would be better for you to [01:08:00] just die rather than to actually go to hell and to be judged in hell.

You know, you have the, this story that always goes around that Jesus was the one who talked the most about hell. Well, that's because the, the passages that are about hell, there's not very many of them. And probably the ones who are saying this are conflating Hades and hell.

Hades and Sheol with Gehenna and hell. They're just, they're not the same thing. And yeah, there is a lot of judgment language, and judgment is talked about in very many ways. Sometimes it's about the deep, and death, and the realm of the dead. But there's a final judgment, and that is what Gehenna and Hell is really pointing to. This final judgment that you're going to get what you are going to deserve. And there's generally a [01:09:00] sense where we are all judged. And some sort of consequence is going to arise from that judgment. The language of Gehenna and Hell is like the most extreme of the judgments. This is where you get the fiery furnace and the lake of fire, and there's just, it's so much destruction imagery, right?

Alright, I'm going to wrap this up and give a few concluding thoughts before I get into the idea of Hell as eternal conscious torment. My original topic was the Outer Darkness and the Deep and how those correlate. Outer Darkness is specific to Matthew, but it seems to have a more direct connection to Gehenna and Hell, whereas the Deep seems to have more connection to Sheol or Hades.

And these two things are, they're not the same, but they are related. The Deep and [01:10:00] Death and Sheol and Hades They still have the judgment aspect, the idea of a fiery place of darkness and judgment. The deep and outer darkness, they're both dark, right? They both have a connotation of punishment. There's an indication of separation from God, or the opposite of heaven, we might say.

But there are also differences. Those who seem to be going into outer darkness are ones who are chosen, and it's not just humanity in general. And the deep is not always about punishment. The deep has more purpose and meaning. So I would say that outer darkness is very related to Gehenna. In particular, it is used in reference to the chosen ones who are going there.

And then I would say that Gehenna is related to the deep in that both are sources of destruction and [01:11:00] judgment. But, the deep itself will be done away with. It seems like it might be inside Gehenna that this is actually happening.

So you have, at the beginning of creation, you have the deep. Not always bad. It's potentially a neutral tool for God. And at the end of creation, you have Gehenna. And this is definitely bad, and it's very torturous, and it's a tool of destruction. If there is a final judgment beyond the grave, beyond the deep, Sheol, or Hades, Then this is what Hell, or Gehenna, or Outer Darkness, or the Fiery Furnace is.

It's almost like Hell, or Gehenna, or Outer Darkness are a more extreme and final version of the deep, or Hades, or Sheol. And bringing this all back to those models of creation, where we [01:12:00] have God's power and wisdom and presence, we see all of that at play when we're talking about judgment. God has the power of deliverance and also the power to judge. This has its ultimate end in hell. This would not have been necessary if the people had followed God's wisdom. And followed him in discipleship. Instead of doing that, they chose ignorance and darkness. And then of course we have the separation from God, the lack of God's presence. This is why it's dark. This is why there's torment.

So the end is an upside down version of the beginning.

So there you go. Fascinating topic, amazing question. Really interesting study for me. But I promised you I'd say something about eternal conscious torment, the idea of hell lasting [01:13:00] forever and the people in it suffering for eternity.

Now, right off the bat, I'm going to say that one of the best defenses of this is that it's such an early belief in Christian history. And I don't think we should take that fact lightly. It has been believed for thousands and millions of Christians throughout time. And I think that should count for something, okay?

So, I'm not tossing the idea out, right? That's not what I'm gonna do. But, I want to show you where it shows up in Scripture, and where it doesn't show up. Alright, so, are you ready for this? I am going to give you some verses in defense of eternal conscious torment. The first one is in Isaiah 66, 24. And it says, quote, And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm [01:14:00] shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. End quote. And this is referenced in the New Testament. You heard me read it before in reference to Gehenna. So, the worms don't die and the fire is not quenched. Okay? This could be eternal conscious torment that goes on forever. Because the worms are still alive, right? But remember, there is this thing called hyperbole. And this is very hyperbolic.

Okay, our second passage comes again from the Old Testament, this time in Daniel. In Daniel 12, verse 2, it says, quote, And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Well, if you're going to be alive forever, then the contempt you're also going to have from the other side is going to last [01:15:00] forever. So there's this idea of eternal torment. Again, keep in mind hyperbole and metaphor, though. But this does seem to be suggesting that it is going to be going on forever. At least that's the word for everlasting life, right?

Alright, moving into the New Testament. In Matthew 25, 46, it says, quote, And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. This is the most clear of everything we've looked at. It says right there, eternal punishment, that is parallel to eternal life. I think this has got to be the best defense for the entire argument.

And it's just one verse. And I don't want to suggest that that can't be a defense for the idea, but for me, it makes me hold the idea very, very loosely. Another passage we could look [01:16:00] at is in Revelation 20, verses 7 through 15. And I'm not going to read that, but the idea is that if your name is not in the book of life, then you're going to be cast into the lake of fire.

And if the lake of fire is eternal and eternally doing something to Satan forever. Then, the idea then is that's also going to be the case for the people who are there. They're not going to be consumed. They're just going to be tormented forever.

Now, there's a whole lot of other verses that I could bring up here that are related to eternal conscious torment, but actually really kind of indicate more of a destruction rather than torment.

Remember Matthew 10, 28? Where both the soul and the body are going to be destroyed in hell. That doesn't sound like torment. That sounds like destruction. Mark 9, 43, again, speaks of the unquenchable [01:17:00] fire, but the fire is eternal. That doesn't necessarily mean what's being burned in the fire is going to last forever.

Matthew 25, 4 talks about the eternal fire for the devil and his angels. So, if the fire is eternal, the idea is that they're going to be there burning forever. And if this is the lake of fire that's in Revelation 20, then there's the suggestion that people who go into the fire will also be tortured forever.

But again, the fire is eternal. The only place I've seen that has eternal punishment was that verse in Matthew 25, 46. Everything else seems to be focused on the eternality of the fire, not the torment or the destruction.

Then there's also 2 Thessalonians 1 verse 9, which says, quote, They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the [01:18:00] glory of his might. End quote.

So, punishment of eternal what? Eternal destruction? Not eternal punishment, not eternal torment. But destruction. That's the language there. Now, we could ask, how are you going to be destroyed eternally if you don't last eternally? Right? So, maybe that's the idea of torment there. I mean, it could be.

Like I said, I'm not tossing out the idea of eternal conscious torment as an option. Matthew will allow you to toss that out as an option. I think we have to keep that in the game. But I'm just trying to point out that a lot of this language that we take to be torment is really couched more in the aspect of destruction.

All right, two more verses here, Hebrews 10, 26 and 27 say, quote, For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the [01:19:00] truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. But a fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. End quote again, the discussion of consuming and destruction.

I will end the passages with Jude seven, which says, quote, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire. serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. End quote. Here we have eternal fire, but Sodom and Gomorrah are not being destroyed eternally.

So, there's definitely this idea that the eternal fire is, again, it's hyperbole. It's showing the extreme nature of it. So, I just want to point out that there are way more verses about destruction [01:20:00] than there are about eternal punishment and torment. I'm not even trying to defend a doctrine of annihilation or conditional immortality here.

I'm just bringing out what the text says to let it say what it says. And when you have so many different authors talking about similar but related things, but different things, it's really easy to just kind of Lump it all together in a big ball of Play Doh and say, Here we go, here's our answer. That's just, that's just not the best way to be reading the text.

Right? It's just not. Is outer darkness part of the concept of eternal conscious torment? It could be, since as I said it's related to Gehenna--but it's used in such a particular way that, again, trying to harmonize it all...I'm just not sure that's the point. I will say it's possible that as a metaphor, outer darkness *might* suggest that eternal conscious torment was on the mind of the first century Jew. But it also might not have anything to do with that at all, really.

So then you could ask, when was Hell created, you know? And why, why are the ideas so diverse? How can it be dark if it's fiery? Well, the idea is that this is metaphorical language. And you should be reading each individual thing as its own [01:21:00] point instead of trying to harmonize these ideas as if they're all coming from something that we could just go walk into and observe.

That's just not how we should be thinking of this and looking at it. That's not to say that there's not something there that we should be concerned with, right? Obviously, the theme of judgment is strong. And we should be taking that seriously. How it all ends up shaking out in the end is, you know, that's God's business , and things will end up just and right as they should.

Alright, well, that is about everything I have to say. Well, not really everything. There were note cards I didn't actually get to in this episode, and they will be saved for other episodes, I am certain. But thank you again, Gracie, for that great question. If anyone else has questions for the podcast, I would love to hear them.

You can reach me on Facebook or [01:22:00] through my website at GenesisMarksTheSpot. com, where, by the way, I will also mention I do have artwork up for sale there on the store tab if you're interested in having a look at that and helping support my podcast. Other ways you can do that is by donating through PayPal or Patreon, and I really appreciate all of you who do that. You guys help me keep the lights on here, and I really appreciate it. Thank you also to those of you who share my episodes and who have rated my podcast on the various places that you listen to it at, which you can also rate it on my podcast website, and that helps other people find the content. If you weren't aware, you can also listen to my podcasts on YouTube, and sometime in the new year I will be getting actual video content on my channel.

I wish you all a blessed week and a happy new year. And we'll see you later.